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Thread: First ancient DNA from mainland Finland reveals origins of Siberian ancestry in regio

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by ADW_1981 View Post
    I1 in Finland is earlier than the Germanics.
    Tell me how earlier. Finnish I1 is rooted in the Iron Age, thats within Germanic timeline.

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  3. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Govan View Post
    Tell me how earlier. Finnish I1 is rooted in the Iron Age, thats within Germanic timeline.
    While I agree that the ancestor of I1 in Finland is young, I1 along with N1c is ubiquitous in Finland in regions where Swedish was never even spoken. Moreover, R1b/R1a are at very low frequency despite the fact the latter was most likely the driver among CWC throughout Scandinavia.

    According to Yfull, I-CTS7676 the immediate ancestor, is about 3000 years old and sub-branches of this clade likely moved into Finland from the central-east region of Sweden. There are other parallel branches of I1 in Scandinavia who seem to overlap with Germany (for example, and likely spread with Germanic language along with R1b/R1a). Perhaps all of the I1 branches are hunter-gatherers who turned into farmers, similar to what happened with I2 megalithism along the Atlantic, while maintaining a WHG Y-chromosome.

    The point is that I1/N1c are the main lineages of Finland at the near absence of R1b/R1a which doesn't make much sense if you're going to argue that I1 was a lineage which spread from the steppes. (which it probably didn't unless it suddenly turns up en masse)
    YDNA: R1b-Z220 (A7066+) (1800's Stepney, London(Bethnal Green), UK George Wood b. 1782
    maternal-grandfather YDNA: prob. I1 Gurr, George 1843, Feversham, Kent, England.
    maternal-grandmother YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    maternal-ggrandfather YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton mdka Ireland(?) < 1800s

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  5. #13
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    An interesting feature of the paper is that the stand-alone "EHG" ancestry pretty much died out in N/NE Europe after the Neolithic expansion, which explains why the extant branches of R1a*/pre-R1b-M73 are are low frequency in the region today. For whatever reason there is still stand-alone WHG ancestry that is separate from that found in LBK related ancestry. All of the EHG is embedded in Yamnaya.
    YDNA: R1b-Z220 (A7066+) (1800's Stepney, London(Bethnal Green), UK George Wood b. 1782
    maternal-grandfather YDNA: prob. I1 Gurr, George 1843, Feversham, Kent, England.
    maternal-grandmother YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    maternal-ggrandfather YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton mdka Ireland(?) < 1800s

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    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-07483-5
    "The steppe ancestry component within modern Europeans (green), which is associated with the Yamnaya population, is maximised in ancient Iranian populations and to a lesser extent Caucasus hunter-gatherers (CHG). This ancestry component is also present in modern Armenians from the Caucasus, Bedouins from the Arabian Peninsula and South Asian populations."


    Supplementary Figure 4
    https://static-content.springer.com/...MOESM1_ESM.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by ADW_1981 View Post
    While I agree that the ancestor of I1 in Finland is young, I1 along with N1c is ubiquitous in Finland in regions where Swedish was never even spoken.
    Proto-Germanic and Swedish are two different things as far as I am concerned. Proto-Germanic was grammatically even closer to High German than to Swedish. Swedish was introduced in Finland during the Medieval era, while Proto-Germanic loanwords would have entered Finnish much earlier.

    According to Yfull, I-CTS7676 the immediate ancestor, is about 3000 years old and sub-branches of this clade likely moved into Finland from the central-east region of Sweden. There are other parallel branches of I1 in Scandinavia who seem to overlap with Germany (for example, and likely spread with Germanic language along with R1b/R1a). Perhaps all of the I1 branches are hunter-gatherers who turned into farmers, similar to what happened with I2 megalithism along the Atlantic, while maintaining a WHG Y-chromosome.
    The point is that I1/N1c are the main lineages of Finland at the near absence of R1b/R1a which doesn't make much sense if you're going to argue that I1 was a lineage which spread from the steppes. (which it probably didn't unless it suddenly turns up en masse)
    N1c has a clear founder effect in Finnic speaking populations. I don't think there is any other answer than elite dominance of a small group of men.

    As for I1 it was passed down the Irong Age populations via assimilated farmers, who would have got it from mesolithic hunter-gatherers. However I1 was bypassed luckily, even in Mesolithic Europe it was a rare lineage. I have never heard of I1 as a steppe lineage, this must be a very minority view.
    Last edited by Govan; 11-27-2018 at 05:28 PM.

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  11. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by J Man View Post
    It would be very interesting if someone could target and draw out the Lakeland Saami ancestry in modern Finns genomes. I know Mauri has but I am not sure of his methods.
    Because you do not like the result?

    However, unlike the Vikings who were trading along the coast, Finns expanded through farming and it was a demic expansion in the litteral sense of the word. They expanded further and further north and turned all possible land into agricultural settlements. While doing this, they encountered people living in the inland areas. Why would there not have been any admixture.

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    Proto-Uralic imo is associated with Seima-Turbino phenomenon. I assume that the native element had Siberian Hunter Gatherer like ancestry (with or without extra EHG or other types of admixture), the intrusive element maybe Hittite-like or GAC-like ancestry.

    Most of the N subclades that survive today could have arisen in a much more Western position than what is usually thought. Maybe there was an older East to West movement (5000 y. or more) but also West to East movements during the last 4000 years.

    Why Hittite like or GAC like ancestry make sense? The answer is in the following map imo.
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...étallurgie.png

    The linguistic elements considered 'Indo-Uralic' are based on the languages of Bronze Age metallurgists of Balkans and Anatolia who in turn mostly descended from Neolithic farmers having absorbed various Hunter Gatherer groups, depending on the region.

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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-07483-5
    "The steppe ancestry component within modern Europeans (green), which is associated with the Yamnaya population, is maximised in ancient Iranian populations and to a lesser extent Caucasus hunter-gatherers (CHG). This ancestry component is also present in modern Armenians from the Caucasus, Bedouins from the Arabian Peninsula and South Asian populations."
    This is just a coincidence that shouldn't be overemphasized.

    Yamnaya wasn't even closely related to Maykop, let alone to Iranian farmers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina View Post
    Because you do not like the result?

    However, unlike the Vikings who were trading along the coast, Finns expanded through farming and it was a demic expansion in the litteral sense of the word. They expanded further and further north and turned all possible land into agricultural settlements. While doing this, they encountered people living in the inland areas. Why would there not have been any admixture.
    I never said that I didn't like the result. I just do not know which methods he obtained those results with. I messaged him about it but he never replied....Obviously some admixture happened and there is nothing wrong with that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Govan View Post
    Proto-Germanic and Swedish are two different things as far as I am concerned. Proto-Germanic was grammatically even closer to High German than to Swedish. Swedish was introduced in Finland during the Medieval era, while Proto-Germanic loanwords would have entered Finnish much earlier.



    N1c has a clear founder effect in Finnic speaking populations. I don't think there is any other answer than elite dominance of a small group of men.

    As for I1 it was passed down the Irong Age populations via assimilated farmers, who would have got it from mesolithic hunter-gatherers. However I1 was bypassed luckily, even in Mesolithic Europe it was a rare lineage. I have never heard of I1 as a steppe lineage, this must be a very minority view.
    I think I need to properly corroborate the other aDNA from Bronze Age Scandinavia to prove this point, or possibly refute it. However, what is quite clear, is that subbranch of I1-L22 that is quite common in Finns could not have arrived with Germanic speakers due to the paucity of R1a/R1b in Finland. The I1-L22 seem like yet another group of forager-quasi farmers who settled in Finland independently of CWC or later people.
    YDNA: R1b-Z220 (A7066+) (1800's Stepney, London(Bethnal Green), UK George Wood b. 1782
    maternal-grandfather YDNA: prob. I1 Gurr, George 1843, Feversham, Kent, England.
    maternal-grandmother YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    maternal-ggrandfather YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton mdka Ireland(?) < 1800s

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