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Thread: First ancient DNA from mainland Finland reveals origins of Siberian ancestry in regio

  1. #21
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    The genotype data are on the way.
    Last edited by Generalissimo; 11-27-2018 at 10:22 PM.

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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kanenas View Post
    Proto-Uralic imo is associated with Seima-Turbino phenomenon. I assume that the native element had Siberian Hunter Gatherer like ancestry (with or without extra EHG or other types of admixture), the intrusive element maybe Hittite-like or GAC-like ancestry.

    Most of the N subclades that survive today could have arisen in a much more Western position than what is usually thought. Maybe there was an older East to West movement (5000 y. or more) but also West to East movements during the last 4000 years.

    Why Hittite like or GAC like ancestry make sense? The answer is in the following map imo.
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...étallurgie.png

    The linguistic elements considered 'Indo-Uralic' are based on the languages of Bronze Age metallurgists of Balkans and Anatolia who in turn mostly descended from Neolithic farmers having absorbed various Hunter Gatherer groups, depending on the region.
    Well that's a novel take on the Indo-Uralic theory.

    And when I say novel take, I'm being sarcastic.

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    I'd like to know more about the Siberian component. It seems indeed to be maximized in Nganasans, though Tundra Yukaghirs are probably fair representatives, too, judging by how closely they plot to Nganasans on the PCA.

    The recent Sikora pre-print on Siberia modeled several ancient and modern populations using various ancient populations as sources:

     


    They didn't model Nganasans or Yukaghirs, though, which is too bad. The Nenets are there, as are several other Uralic populations. Notice the absence of the purple Ancient Paleo-Siberian (Kolyma1-like) component in Nenets, Khanty, Komi, Afontova Gora LBA, and Levänluhta Saami Iron Age; all the East Asian admixture in these populations is best proxied by a source related to Devil's Gate. This supports Sikora's claim that Ancient Paleo-Siberian ancestry was confined to east of the Urals, and that East Asian admixture west of the Urals is related to the Holocene expansions which transformed the rest of Siberia. I don't want to put too much stock in this result, though, because that Aleut model looks totally wrong. Afanasievo is obviously proxying for recent European ancestry, but there's no trace of Ancient Paleo-Siberian like in the other Eskimos, and there really, really should be. This undermines my confidence in the method, but maybe it's just a mistake in the pre-print.

    It seems likely that Bolshoy will also lack the Ancient Paleo-Siberian ancestry, and have a profile similar to Nenets. That said, I'm not sure that Bolshoy were necessarily Uralic speakers, as seductively parsimonious as that might be. Sikora showed the dynamic nature of movements throughout Siberia. It was a crazy place. Could it not be the case that Bolshoy were Paleo-Laplandic/Paleo-Lakelandic speakers, and that Uralic came later, borne by another population with the same type of Siberian ancestry?
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  7. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    Could it not be the case that Bolshoy were Paleo-Laplandic/Paleo-Lakelandic speakers, and that Uralic came later, borne by another population with the same type of Siberian ancestry?
    I think this is likely. It seems to me now that the Uralic expansion only really got going during the Late Bronze Age and probably had highly variable demic impact.

    Uralic languages probably arrived in Fennoscandia during the Bronze Age, but dominated the East Baltic region during the Iron Age, and this is when N1c first shows up in the ancient DNA record there, in the Tarand graves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ADW_1981 View Post
    I think I need to properly corroborate the other aDNA from Bronze Age Scandinavia to prove this point, or possibly refute it. However, what is quite clear, is that subbranch of I1-L22 that is quite common in Finns could not have arrived with Germanic speakers due to the paucity of R1a/R1b in Finland. The I1-L22 seem like yet another group of forager-quasi farmers who settled in Finland independently of CWC or later people.
    I don't think we can rule out the scenario of a late intrusion of I1 to Finland(late as in during the period of Proto-Germanic) just because modern day Swedes have considerable amount of R1a and R1b. We've seen from the various early Germanic tribes that some were mainly carrying R1b-U106 and others like the Gothic samples to come from Poland, mainly I1. That could've been the case with the Germanic settlers in Finland aswell.

    Before the Swedish database went down I do remember that in certain areas of Sweden, such as the Southeast of Sweden, I1 is around 60% with a relatively high sample base. In such regions R1a+R1b make up "only" around 30% of the total Y-lineages.
    Last edited by Helves; 11-28-2018 at 12:41 AM.

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  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helves View Post
    I don't think we can rule out the scenario of a late intrusion of I1 to Finland(late as in during the period of Proto-Germanic) just because modern day Swedes have considerable amount of R1a and R1b. We've seen from the various early Germanic tribes that some were mainly carrying R1b-U106 and others like the Gothic samples to come from Poland, mainly I1. That could've been the case with the Germanic settlers in Finland aswell.

    Before the Swedish database went down I do remember that in certain areas of Sweden, such as the Southeast of Sweden, I1 is around 60% with a relatively high sample base. In such regions R1a+R1b make up "only" around 30% of the total Y-lineages.
    I'm puzzled, the DNA hap group via the article wasn't N1c? Because isn't Siberia the logical birthplace of that group? Scientists in Finland have only recently been able to genotype the skeletons in the water graves in southern Ostrobothia

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    I'd like to know more about the Siberian component. It seems indeed to be maximized in Nganasans, though Tundra Yukaghirs are probably fair representatives, too, judging by how closely they plot to Nganasans on the PCA.

    The recent Sikora pre-print on Siberia modeled several ancient and modern populations using various ancient populations as sources:

    They didn't model Nganasans or Yukaghirs, though, which is too bad. The Nenets are there, as are several other Uralic populations. Notice the absence of the purple Ancient Paleo-Siberian (Kolyma1-like) component in Nenets, Khanty, Komi, Afontova Gora LBA, and Levänluhta Saami Iron Age; all the East Asian admixture in these populations is best proxied by a source related to Devil's Gate. This supports Sikora's claim that Ancient Paleo-Siberian ancestry was confined to east of the Urals, and that East Asian admixture west of the Urals is related to the Holocene expansions which transformed the rest of Siberia. I don't want to put too much stock in this result, though, because that Aleut model looks totally wrong. Afanasievo is obviously proxying for recent European ancestry, but there's no trace of Ancient Paleo-Siberian like in the other Eskimos, and there really, really should be. This undermines my confidence in the method, but maybe it's just a mistake in the pre-print.
    You should not take that graph too litterally. The 2-way, 3-way and 4-way admixture proportions give different results. In a discussion on a Finnish forum it was noted that the best qpAdm-modeling, i.e. lowest chisq and highest pval and pvalnested to northern Izhma Komis is a 4-way modeling in which there is no Devil's Gate but instead Kolyma + bichon + afanasievo + barcin (Supplementary data table 4 below).

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  14. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post

    They didn't model Nganasans or Yukaghirs, though, which is too bad. The Nenets are there, as are several other Uralic populations. Notice the absence of the purple Ancient Paleo-Siberian (Kolyma1-like) component in Nenets, Khanty, Komi, Afontova Gora LBA, and Levänluhta Saami Iron Age; all the East Asian admixture in these populations is best proxied by a source related to Devil's Gate. This supports Sikora's claim that Ancient Paleo-Siberian ancestry was confined to east of the Urals, and that East Asian admixture west of the Urals is related to the Holocene expansions which transformed the rest of Siberia. I don't want to put too much stock in this result, though, because that Aleut model looks totally wrong. Afanasievo is obviously proxying for recent European ancestry, but there's no trace of Ancient Paleo-Siberian like in the other Eskimos, and there really, really should be. This undermines my confidence in the method, but maybe it's just a mistake in the pre-print.
    Nganasans are in a genetic sense slightly more western-shifted Tundra Yukaghirs and Evenks who experienced significant drift. Karafet has a recent paper about samoyeds with a bit more on them.

    Sikora's qpAdm doesn't look very useful in inferring population history for a couple of reasons. The supplements reveal Kolyma and Devil's Gate are interchangeable for many successful fits and for example the fit with highest p-value for the northern Komi involves Kolyma, not Devil's Gate. There's also a map with haplotype modeling, which was possible since these are high quality samples, and that suggests both Yeniseians and Samoyedic/Ugric speakers have "ancient Paleosiberian" as a major component. If it wasn't and the qpAdm was correct we'd be seeing Devil's Gate there like in Uyghurs, Hazaras and Altaians. Could be they're lacking source populations or an outgroup issue, what you say about Afanasievo is a good point and WSHG, at least according to G25, is very important.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina View Post
    You should not take that graph too litterally. The 2-way, 3-way and 4-way admixture proportions give different results. In a discussion on a Finnish forum it was noted that the best qpAdm-modeling, i.e. lowest chisq and highest pval and pvalnested to northern Izhma Komis is a 4-way modeling in which there is no Devil's Gate but instead Kolyma + bichon + afanasievo + barcin (Supplementary data table 4 below).
    Very interesting, thanks for the information.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaikorth View Post
    Nganasans are in a genetic sense slightly more western-shifted Tundra Yukaghirs and Evenks who experienced significant drift. Karafet has a recent paper about samoyeds with a bit more on them.
    I looked that study up, but could only read the abstract since there's a paywall. The Nganasan component shows up all the time in Admixture runs so it'd be nice to know what they're actually made of with the same formal robusticity we've seen applied to Amerinds. I assume Nganasans aren't fully East Asian, but have some minor ANE, like in Chukotko-Kamchatkans. Speaking of which, I'm not sure about where the CKs stand. The qpAdm model suggests a lot of Devil's Gate in Koryaks, and in Saqqaq, too. On the other hand, that Magadan BA sample is almost totally Kolyma1-like according to the qpAdm model, so I do wonder if Koryaks and Paleo-Eskimos are actually as AP as Magadan or if they do indeed have more recent Holocene East Asian admixture from further south. If the models can't be taken at face value, then who knows?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaikorth View Post
    Sikora's qpAdm doesn't look very useful in inferring population history for a couple of reasons. The supplements reveal Kolyma and Devil's Gate are interchangeable for many successful fits and for example the fit with highest p-value for the northern Komi involves Kolyma, not Devil's Gate. There's also a map with haplotype modeling, which was possible since these are high quality samples, and that suggests both Yeniseians and Samoyedic/Ugric speakers have "ancient Paleosiberian" as a major component. If it wasn't and the qpAdm was correct we'd be seeing Devil's Gate there like in Uyghurs, Hazaras and Altaians. Could be they're lacking source populations or an outgroup issue, what you say about Afanasievo is a good point and WSHG, at least according to G25, is very important.
    Thanks for the insight. I have seen the haplotype map, but I thought the purple near the Urals was just representing Ancient Paleo-Siberian ancestry in Yeniseians and Selkups (which I expected). Yeah, it does seem more pervasive in Western Siberia now that I take a closer look at the map. I hope once (if) genotype data is released for this paper and others like it, people skilled with qpAdm will explore these populations more thoroughly (and precisely) than the academics.
    Last edited by Michalis Moriopoulos; 11-28-2018 at 08:22 AM.
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