Page 11 of 12 FirstFirst ... 9101112 LastLast
Results 101 to 110 of 111

Thread: Who are the Palestinian Arabs, and how "indigenous" are they to Israel/Palestine?

  1. #101
    Registered Users
    Posts
    98
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    95% Ashkenaz,5% Sephardic
    Nationality
    US
    Y-DNA
    J2a
    mtDNA
    J1c

    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    Well it's not only these things.

    For example, one of the Arabic names Palestinians used for Jerusalem, is Bait Al-Maqdis, which obviously derive from the Jewish Hebrew name for the Temple in Jerusalem - Beit Ha Miqdash בית המקדש.

    In fact, one of the Palestinian armed factions in the Syrian Civil War, called itself Ankaf Bait Al-Maqdis. It's a bit ironic since I know recent Palestinian narrative includes rejection and denial of the historical existence of any Jewish Temple on the Temple Mount.

    In any case, there is also the old tradition, or minhag, of Yemenite Jews how to conduct the Tachanun prayer, a prayer which Jews say during most of the non-holiday days of the week, at the end of Shacharit (Jewish morning prayer) and Mincha (Jewish afternoon prayer).

    Tachanun is done in a certain posture, which is called "nefilat apayim" נפילת אפיים - literal translation means "falling on the face". The original practice, in which people knelt down until their faces touched the ground to show humility and submission to God, was practiced by the Baladi-rite Yemenite Jews, which was the practice of all Yemenite Jews until the 16th century.

    It is reminiscent of the Muslim way of prayer.

    Another interesting thing is the way Karaite Jews currently prayer - which is still, similar to the "nefilat apayim" and looks like the Muslim way of prayer. Karaite synagogues have no chairs, for example, just rugs, reminding of a mosque in that way.

    While today Karaite Judaism is but a small minority among Jews, during the 9th century AD, some sources estimate that ~40% of the Jews were Karaites.

    It's quite possible that the Muslims which saw the way Yemenite Jews prayer, and outside of Arabia the way Karaite Jews prayed, adopted that as well.
    There was a gradual shift away from Judaism. Initially Yom Kippur was celebrated and the day of rest was on Saturday.
    Last edited by josh w.; 12-05-2018 at 04:15 PM.

  2. The Following User Says Thank You to josh w. For This Useful Post:

     Targum (01-01-2019)

  3. #102
    Registered Users
    Posts
    265
    Y-DNA
    I-Y16419
    mtDNA
    T2e1

    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    Well it's not only these things.

    For example, one of the Arabic names Palestinians used for Jerusalem, is Bait Al-Maqdis, which obviously derive from the Jewish Hebrew name for the Temple in Jerusalem - Beit Ha Miqdash בית המקדש.

    In fact, one of the Palestinian armed factions in the Syrian Civil War, called itself Ankaf Bait Al-Maqdis. It's a bit ironic since I know recent Palestinian narrative includes rejection and denial of the historical existence of any Jewish Temple on the Temple Mount.

    In any case, there is also the old tradition, or minhag, of Yemenite Jews how to conduct the Tachanun prayer, a prayer which Jews say during most of the non-holiday days of the week, at the end of Shacharit (Jewish morning prayer) and Mincha (Jewish afternoon prayer).

    Tachanun is done in a certain posture, which is called "nefilat apayim" נפילת אפיים - literal translation means "falling on the face". The original practice, in which people knelt down until their faces touched the ground to show humility and submission to God, was practiced by the Baladi-rite Yemenite Jews, which was the practice of all Yemenite Jews until the 16th century.

    It is reminiscent of the Muslim way of prayer.

    Another interesting thing is the way Karaite Jews currently prayer - which is still, similar to the "nefilat apayim" and looks like the Muslim way of prayer. Karaite synagogues have no chairs, for example, just rugs, reminding of a mosque in that way.

    While today Karaite Judaism is but a small minority among Jews, during the 9th century AD, some sources estimate that ~40% of the Jews were Karaites.

    It's quite possible that the Muslims which saw the way Yemenite Jews prayer, and outside of Arabia the way Karaite Jews prayed, adopted that as well.
    hmmmm .. so the Jews had a hand in the foundation of Islam, now thats what I call divine comedy, it would be so ironic.

    yalla, that's only one of the dozen conspiracy theories thats thrown at you people, you can handle it

  4. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to IronHorse For This Useful Post:

     Erikl86 (12-05-2018),  jonahst (12-05-2018),  Targum (01-01-2019)

  5. #103
    Registered Users
    Posts
    56
    Sex
    Location
    Iraq

    Iraq Iraq 1959-1963
    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    Well it's not only these things.

    It's quite possible that the Muslims which saw the way Yemenite Jews prayer, and outside of Arabia the way Karaite Jews prayed, adopted that as well.
    Just for the record. Karaism was founded after the formation of Islam not before and A'nan ben Dawood himself was heavily influenced by his surrounding 'Muslim' Iraq/Mesopotamia at the time, not sure about Yemen though....now back to genetics

  6. #104
    Registered Users
    Posts
    97
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Lebanese
    Y-DNA
    J2a2
    mtDNA
    X2i

    Lebanon Albania United States of America
    Quote Originally Posted by azucanc View Post
    Just for the record. Karaism was founded after the formation of Islam not before and A'nan ben Dawood himself was heavily influenced by his surrounding 'Muslim' Iraq/Mesopotamia at the time, not sure about Yemen though....now back to genetics
    This correlates with what I know. I recently attended a lecture on medieval Karaism and the professor (an Israeli) stressed that Karaism was influenced by Islam, not the other way around. However, I have heard that prayer in early Judaism resembled modern Islamic prayer but I don't have a conclusion about that.
    78.1% Lebanese (Lebanon) + 21.9% Kosovar (Kosovo) @ 3.3

  7. The Following User Says Thank You to KingofPhoenicia001 For This Useful Post:

     azucanc (12-05-2018)

  8. #105
    Gold Member Class
    Posts
    1,637
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Jewish (Ashkenazi)
    Y-DNA
    Q-YP3924 (Q-M378)
    mtDNA
    K1a1b1a

    Israel
    Quote Originally Posted by KingofPhoenicia001 View Post
    This correlates with what I know. I recently attended a lecture on medieval Karaism and the professor (an Israeli) stressed that Karaism was influenced by Islam, not the other way around. However, I have heard that prayer in early Judaism resembled modern Islamic prayer but I don't have a conclusion about that.
    Both Rabbinic and Karaite Judaism had philosophical transactions with Islam during Medieval period.

    And while surely Anan ben David lived after the foundation of Islam, there's nothing in contemporary Karaite Judaism that suggest it had any roots or fundamental basis in Islam.
    Karaite way of prayer is most likely quite similar to how all Jews used to pray during ancient times.
    Last edited by Erikl86; 12-05-2018 at 10:12 PM.
    Check out my Hidden Content
    My Y-DNA: Q-M242 -> Q-L232 -> Q-L275 -> Q-M378 -> Q-Y2016 -> Q-L245 -> Q-FGC1904 -> Q-Y2209 -> Q-Y2225 -> Q-Y2197 -> Q-Y2750 -> Q-YP1004 -> Q-YP3924;
    My mtDNA: K1a1b1a;

    My dad's mtDNA: K2a2a;

  9. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Erikl86 For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (12-05-2018),  jonahst (12-06-2018),  Power77 (12-07-2018)

  10. #106
    Gold Member Class
    Posts
    3,685
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Jewish & British
    Y-DNA
    J1-YSC234 (Z18271+)
    mtDNA
    J1c5

    Israel Israel Jerusalem United Kingdom England Scotland Isle of Man
    Much of Karaite Judaism's core elements are reminiscent of Sadducaic practices, so the roots of Karaite Judaism might well go back to Second Temple Judaism.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

  11. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Agamemnon For This Useful Post:

     Erikl86 (12-05-2018),  jonahst (12-06-2018),  Power77 (12-07-2018),  Targum (01-01-2019)

  12. #107
    Registered Users
    Posts
    265
    Y-DNA
    I-Y16419
    mtDNA
    T2e1

    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    Well it's not only these things.

    For example, one of the Arabic names Palestinians used for Jerusalem, is Bait Al-Maqdis, which obviously derive from the Jewish Hebrew name for the Temple in Jerusalem - Beit Ha Miqdash בית המקדש.

    In fact, one of the Palestinian armed factions in the Syrian Civil War, called itself Ankaf Bait Al-Maqdis. It's a bit ironic since I know recent Palestinian narrative includes rejection and denial of the historical existence of any Jewish Temple on the Temple Mount.

    In any case, there is also the old tradition, or minhag, of Yemenite Jews how to conduct the Tachanun prayer, a prayer which Jews say during most of the non-holiday days of the week, at the end of Shacharit (Jewish morning prayer) and Mincha (Jewish afternoon prayer).

    Tachanun is done in a certain posture, which is called "nefilat apayim" נפילת אפיים - literal translation means "falling on the face". The original practice, in which people knelt down until their faces touched the ground to show humility and submission to God, was practiced by the Baladi-rite Yemenite Jews, which was the practice of all Yemenite Jews until the 16th century.

    It is reminiscent of the Muslim way of prayer.

    Another interesting thing is the way Karaite Jews currently prayer - which is still, similar to the "nefilat apayim" and looks like the Muslim way of prayer. Karaite synagogues have no chairs, for example, just rugs, reminding of a mosque in that way.

    While today Karaite Judaism is but a small minority among Jews, during the 9th century AD, some sources estimate that ~40% of the Jews were Karaites.

    It's quite possible that the Muslims which saw the way Yemenite Jews prayer, and outside of Arabia the way Karaite Jews prayed, adopted that as well.
    Similarities between Islam and Judaism. Part 1

    Similarities between Islam and Judaism. Part 2

  13. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to IronHorse For This Useful Post:

     Erikl86 (12-09-2018),  Targum (01-01-2019)

  14. #108
    Registered Users
    Posts
    200
    Sex
    Location
    America
    Ethnicity
    Pashtun
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA
    R-Z93
    mtDNA
    U2c1

    United States of America Pashtunistan Afghanistan Greater Khorasan Azad Baluchistan Tajikistan
    Quote Originally Posted by DMXX View Post
    Judging by the individual results, some Palestinians do see fit improvements with the addition of Egyptian. Earlier, the Druze-Samaritan "clade" lost some percentages to the Egyptians in a couple of the Palestinians. So it does look likely that there's North African input in a substantial number of Palestinians.

    I wanted to test this in my post above, given several other members commented on the North African stream of ancestry they detected in Palestinians and the pattern described in the above paragraph, but couldn't do so properly, only because modern Muslim Egyptians have a hefty amount of Peninsular Arab heritage themselves (going by the uniparentals).

    If someone can provide poi with several Copt samples, we could use them as an imperfect stand-in for the North African (sans Peninsular Arab) ancestry.

    As we've established that the Palestinians overwhelmingly favour Levant_BA_N over S, we can then replace S with the Copts, resulting in the most optimal ref pop (based on our current samples) setup being:

    Code:
    Anatolia_EBA
    Levant_BA_N
    BedouinB
    Copt
    Yamnaya_Samara
    Dinka
    Its true that Muslim Egyptians have Peninsular heritage, but Palestinians got both ancestries so an nMonte would probably result in reduced Peninsular DNA if they have significant Egyptian heritage. For example, the North African DNA among Iberians contains SSA, but if both North African and an SSA population are used on nMonte, they show that both populations (North Africans, SSAs) have had separate contributions to their gene pool (this only applies to Iberians that have both ancestries not to all Iberians).

    The Egyptians that mixed with Palestinians would have already had Peninsular DNA, so using Copts wouldn't be so helpful here IMO. There's probably significantly more Egyptian DNA among Palestinians if we go back to ancient times, but I'm only really asking about post-Islamic/post-Arabization Egyptian DNA among Palestinians.

  15. The Following User Says Thank You to Mingle For This Useful Post:

     DMXX (12-14-2018)

  16. #109
    Inactive Admin Account
    Posts
    3,126
    Sex
    Y-DNA
    R2a*-M124 (L295-)
    mtDNA
    D4j5*

    England
    Quote Originally Posted by Mingle View Post
    Its true that Muslim Egyptians have Peninsular heritage, but Palestinians got both ancestries so an nMonte would probably result in reduced Peninsular DNA if they have significant Egyptian heritage. For example, the North African DNA among Iberians contains SSA, but if both North African and an SSA population are used on nMonte, they show that both populations (North Africans, SSAs) have had separate contributions to their gene pool (this only applies to Iberians that have both ancestries not to all Iberians).

    The Egyptians that mixed with Palestinians would have already had Peninsular DNA, so using Copts wouldn't be so helpful here IMO. There's probably significantly more Egyptian DNA among Palestinians if we go back to ancient times, but I'm only really asking about post-Islamic/post-Arabization Egyptian DNA among Palestinians.
    Understood and I agree. Please note I took your earlier post to mean you wanted to know about the pre-Islamic Egyptian or North African influence in Palestinians.

    We'll still need pre-Islamic Egyptian sources, however, to distinguish between the post-Islamic/Arabised Egyptian versus pre-Islamic influence, as you highlighted in your first paragraph (and how I gauged Levant_BA_North vs. BedouinB here).

  17. The Following User Says Thank You to DMXX For This Useful Post:

     Mingle (12-15-2018)

  18. #110
    Bronze Class Member
    Posts
    1,586
    Sex

    Turkmenistan Suriname South Africa Costa Rica Norway Australia
    Quote Originally Posted by eolien View Post
    I expressed my opinion in other threads before but need to repeat here. The Druze are not indigenous to southern levant and have a northern origin. It was not an ethnic group originally, so the sect composed of different origins. Like the Nusayri and many other Ismaili movements their leaders came from greater Iran. I also cannot understand that it is a proxy from pre-muslim palestininans. First, they have their origins in post-muslim levant and second, population wise they were a small minority in the levant. I think the real answer will come from deep Y-chromosome studies
    Nusayri is considered a pejorative term. The proper term is Alawites.

    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    I have long postulated, that there was a Mesopotamian-shifting event in the Levant after the Middle East converted to Christianity, as it didn't seem to affect Samaritans.

    When I try to plot Levantines - Muslims AND Christians, without adding North Africans to the the PCA, they are all shifted towards Mesopotamians (but with Muslims still more Southern-shifted, probably due to Arabic admixture), all but the Samaritans who "stay put".

    When I add North Africans, the Levant breaks into two - Muslim Levantines (Palestinians and Jordanians - btw, Jordanians are mostly nowadays of Palestinian origin, so they pretty much plot the same) that plot towards the North African and South to Samaritans, and Christian Levantines (and Muslim Lebanese, which cluster pretty much the same as their Christian counterpart) and Druze remain north to the Samaritans.

    This additional pre-Islamic, but post Christianity, Mesopotamian admixture that seem to have skipped Samartians, can be any several things:

    1. Mesopotamian Christians fleeing the war turn border between the Sasanian Empires and Byzantine Empires.

    2. Intermarriage between pre-Islamic, mostly Christian, Levantine population and Christian Mesopotamians.

    3. The slow Islamization of the Levant and north Mesopotamia, resulting in an Aramaic-speaking, Christian adhering Fertile Crescent stretching from Assyrian homeland to the Levant - causing intermarriage between these people until the final Islamization and Arabization of the forefathers of Muslim Levantines.

    In any case - this can explain why Druze, which seem to have some Mesopotamian admixture, get higher proportions in the modelling of Palestinians than Samartians, which lack this Mesopotamian admixture.

    Also worth mentioning, that these models of Palestinians clearly show why Palestinians are not a good model for ancient Judeans as used by Elhaik et al. and Das et al. (for obvious political reasons), and Lebanese or Samaritans offer far better reference population for Roman-era Levantines.

    I would also wonder where from these Palestinian samples arise - so far the only ones I could geographically locate, originate from Judea and Samaria (aka "West Bank" of the Jordan river, or the disputed territories etc.) or Israel.

    I would really like to see Gazan samples - considering Gaza dialect is slightly different from Judea and Samaria dialect, I wonder if this will also be reflected in genetics.
    Well, Syrian Jews(and other Jews) appear to be closer to other some other Levantines than they are to Samaritans. If there was additional Mesopotamian input after Christianity, you would not expect this:

    1 Sephardic_Jew Druze:Average 4.0289 Open Map 100
    2 Sephardic_Jew Lebanese_Druze:Average 4.1444 Open Map 100
    3 Sephardic_Jew Lebanese_Muslim:Average 4.1938 Open Map 100
    4 Sephardic_Jew Samaritan:Average 5.4311 Open Map 100

    1 Syrian_Jew Druze:Average 1.8496 Open Map 100
    2 Syrian_Jew Lebanese_Druze:Average 1.9358 Open Map 100
    3 Syrian_Jew Lebanese_Muslim:Average 2.371 Open Map 100
    4 Syrian_Jew Samaritan:Average 4.4912 Open Map 100

    1 Ashkenazi_Jew Druze:Average 5.145 Open Map 100
    2 Ashkenazi_Jew Lebanese_Druze:Average 5.2881 Open Map 100
    3 Ashkenazi_Jew Lebanese_Muslim:Average 5.2465 Open Map 100
    4 Ashkenazi_Jew Samaritan:Average 7.4772 Open Map 100

    1 Italian_Jew Druze:Average 3.9718 Open Map 100
    2 Italian_Jew Lebanese_Druze:Average 4.177 Open Map 100
    3 Italian_Jew Lebanese_Muslim:Average 4.4209 Open Map 100
    4 Italian_Jew Samaritan:Average 5.3883 Open Map 100

  19. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Censored For This Useful Post:

     Erikl86 (01-03-2019),  Targum (01-01-2019)

Page 11 of 12 FirstFirst ... 9101112 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 06-24-2018, 08:50 AM
  2. Japan and the Indigenous Ainu "From Prejudice to Pride"
    By MikeWhalen in forum Archaeology (Prehistory)
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 10-17-2017, 03:11 PM
  3. Replies: 9
    Last Post: 05-30-2017, 02:12 PM
  4. Replies: 15
    Last Post: 01-30-2017, 09:51 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •