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Thread: German Regional Y-DNA Distribution

  1. #1
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    German Regional Y-DNA Distribution

    Based on FTDNA Germany Project:

    Sample size is 2400 for all regions (including 255 with ancestry from former eastern Germany: not sure if this includes only self-identified ethnic Germans or also other groups in those provinces of Germany like Poles, Kashubians, Lithuanians, Jews, Sorbs, etc.):





    Centre: Mecklenburg, Vorpommern, West Brandenburg, Province Saxony, Kingdom Saxony, Thuringian States:



    East: Pommern, East Prussia, West Prussia, Silesia, East Brandenburg Posen [sample size 255]:



    At first glance it can be estimated:

    NW - 55% Germanic, 13% Italo-Celtic, 10% Balto-Slavic, 22% other
    South - 39% Germanic, 25% Italo-Celtic, 11% Balto-Slavic, 25% other
    Centre - 39% Germanic, 24% Balto-Slavic, 16% Italo-Celtic, 21% other
    East - 44% Balto-Slavic, 30% Germanic, 12% Italo-Celtic, 15% other

    ^^^ If we assume, that:

    Balto-Slavic: R1a-Z280, R1a-M458, N, I2a
    Germanic: R1b-U106, I1, R1a-Z284, I2b
    Italo-Celtic: U152, DF27, L21, P312

    Other: E, G, J, I2c, T, L, C, Q, R1b-L23, R1a-Z93

    Many of the 255 samples from eastern regions are undoubtedly from East Prussia.

    Some time ago I collected data about 84 Y-DNA samples with ancestry tracing back to East Prussia from various FTDNA Projects, and there were 19 haplogroup N samples among them (23%) and a lot of R1a as well - but most of East Prussian R1a was Z280, just like in Lithuania.

    In my East Prussian sample only 18% of R1a was M458 and 82% was Z280 and other.

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  3. #2
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    Before RMS strikes you down for using modern data do you really think this looks more Italo-Celtic than, say, Germanic or Other?

    df19map1218.JPG
    R1b>M269>L23>L51>L11>P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833 >S4281>S4268>Z17112 (S17075-)

    Y-cousin: 6DRIF-23 (DF19>>Z17112+, S17075+)

    Ancestors: Francis Cooke (M223/I2a2a) b1583; Hester Mahieu (Cooke) (J1c2 mtDNA) b.1584; Richard Warren (E-M35) b1578; Elizabeth Walker (Warren) (H1j mtDNA) b1583;
    John Mead (I2a1/P37.2) b1634; Rev. Joseph Hull (I1, L1301+ L1302-) b1595; Benjamin Harrington (M223/I2a2a-Y5729) b1618; Joshua Griffith (L21>DF13) b1593;
    John Wing (U106) b1584; Hermann Wilhelm (DF19) b1635

  4. #3
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    is there a way to get a breakdown of U106 at all? I noted where you must be a member of the project in order to access Y-DNA results.

    I would be interested in seeing a breakdown of Z381, Z18, U106 (xZ381 xZ18) and ideally a breakdown of Z381 into L48, L47, Z156 and negative for all these subclades.
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  6. #4
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    Curious as to why are E-M96 and J-M267, higher in the Central and Southern regions respectively, than others.

    Also interesting to notice that the more you are closer to France/Netherlands/Belgium, the more you get high frequencies of U106.

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    Why is it that in these sort of maps U106 is always shown as a single block, while P312 is always divided into subclades?

    Your assumption that all P312 is Italo-Celtic is nonsense. Not only are there are three P312 subclades that appear to be primarily Germanic, but there is no reason to assume there were no elements of P312 involved in the formation of the Germanic people.

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    Very interesting. My line came from Germany to America but in the mid 18th century so we're not sure which region other than a linguistic guess at Kingdom of Saxony. Can you see how L2 looks in your charts?

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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenHind View Post
    Why is it that in these sort of maps U106 is always shown as a single block, while P312 is always divided into subclades?

    Your assumption that all P312 is Italo-Celtic is nonsense. Not only are there are three P312 subclades that appear to be primarily Germanic, but there is no reason to assume there were no elements of P312 involved in the formation of the Germanic people.
    I know about these 3 clades, but as you can see they are relatively minor in all regions of Germany (for example all 3 of them are no more than 2% of lineages in North-West Germany, according to the first chart). Calling U106 Germanic and P312 Italo-Celtic is a generalization, but it is just as likely that some U106 subclades were involved in the formation of primarily P312 Italo-Celtic peoples, as the other way around. Remember that one of the oldest U106 samples known to date is from Czech Republic (Unetice culture, sample I7196) which is much closer to Celtic Urheimat than to Germanic Urheimat. Another case of potentially Celtic U106 is from Roman era York, although those could just as well be some early Germanic migrants.
    Last edited by Tomenable; 12-07-2018 at 07:46 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    I know about these 3 clades, but as you can see they are relatively minor in all regions of Germany (for example all 3 of them are no more than 2% of lineages in North-West Germany, according to the first chart). Calling U106 Germanic and P312 Italo-Celtic is a generalization, but it is just as likely that some U106 subclades were involved in the formation of primarily P312 Italo-Celtic peoples, as the other way around. Remember that one of the oldest U106 samples known to date is from Czech Republic (Unetice culture, sample I7196) which is much closer to Celtic Urheimat than to Germanic Urheimat. Another case of potentially Celtic U106 is from Roman era York, although those could just as well be some early Germanic migrants.
    While the the three P312 subclades in question may be relatively small in Germany, they are extremely rare to non-existant in traditionally Celtic countries, which hardly supports labeling them as Italo-Celtic. While they just aren't that common anywhere, with the possible exception of L238 in Scandinavia, they all appear to be concentrated in Germanic language countries.

    My main point is that it is misleading to lump all of U106 together and then compare it to P312 subclades. It is a classic case of comparing apples to oranges. My guess is that if you break down U106 subclades the same way you did with P312, you would find some of them relatively rare in Germany as well
    Last edited by GoldenHind; 12-07-2018 at 10:10 PM.

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  15. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moe12 View Post
    Curious as to why are E-M96 and J-M267, higher in the Central and Southern regions respectively, than others.

    Also interesting to notice that the more you are closer to France/Netherlands/Belgium, the more you get high frequencies of U106.
    And the further north, the more I1. Most informative.
    Living DNA Cautious mode:
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    Y line: Peak District, England. Big Y match: Scania, Sweden; TMRCA 1,280 ybp (YFull);
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