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Thread: Entry of haplogroups to the Levant

  1. #1
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    Question Entry of haplogroups to the Levant

    Excuse any ignorance, since I am a beginner of population genetics and I am only trying to acquire more and more knowledge.

    My question is, since E1b1b was probably the most ancient subclade in the Levant (and Mesopotamia), when did other haplogroups like G, J1, J2, T, R1a and R1b enter the Levant and where did they come from?! Virtually none of these haplogroups are present in PPN/Natufian samples ( except for T in PPNB ). Any explanation or help would be surely helpful and thanked.

    Thanks again!
    Last edited by Moe12; 12-09-2018 at 07:44 AM.
    PaternaL Y-DNA: Possibly E-V12 (E1b1b1a1a1) [Egyptian] Peaks at Southern Egypt (74%)

    Maternal Y-DNA: J-P58+ (J1a2a1a2+) [Mesopotamian] Peaks at Southern Iraq (81%)

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    We actually don't know that E1b1b is the oldest subclade in the Levant. It may be associated with ancient North African ancestry, but while it was present in Natufians, we don't know when it got there yet.

    G, J, and T were present at the beginning of the Neolithic in other parts of West Asia and moved into the Levant during the Neolithic through the Bronze Age.

    The R sublcades are currently the most mysterious. It is very likely that they were not present in appreciable amounts until the Bronze Age at the earliest. They arrived ultimately from the Eurasian steppe, likely with Indo European language speakers. But as of now we don't know exactly which groups brought them or exactly when.

    Hope that helps!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Psynome View Post
    We actually don't know that E1b1b is the oldest subclade in the Levant. It may be associated with ancient North African ancestry, but while it was present in Natufians, we don't know when it got there yet.

    G, J, and T were present at the beginning of the Neolithic in other parts of West Asia and moved into the Levant during the Neolithic through the Bronze Age.

    The R sublcades are currently the most mysterious. It is very likely that they were not present in appreciable amounts until the Bronze Age at the earliest. They arrived ultimately from the Eurasian steppe, likely with Indo European language speakers. But as of now we don't know exactly which groups brought them or exactly when.

    Hope that helps!
    Thanks

    By the way where did they come from, granted they are from western Asia?
    PaternaL Y-DNA: Possibly E-V12 (E1b1b1a1a1) [Egyptian] Peaks at Southern Egypt (74%)

    Maternal Y-DNA: J-P58+ (J1a2a1a2+) [Mesopotamian] Peaks at Southern Iraq (81%)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moe12 View Post
    Thanks

    By the way where did they come from, granted they are from western Asia?
    Are you referring to G, J, and T?

    J has been found in locations around the Zagros and Caucasus mountains before and during the Neolithic. From circumstantial evidence the ancient Mesopotamians may have had mostly J subclades, but this has not yet been proven because we don't have any ancient DNA from Mesopotamia yet.

    G and T are more closely associated with Anatolia. The Neolithic farmers that spread from Anatolia to Europe were mostly haplogroup G carriers. Haplogroup T was found in a group of Chalcolithic inhabitants of the Galilee area in Israel, and they had substantial Anatolian farmer related ancestry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moe12 View Post
    Excuse any ignorance, since I am a beginner of population genetics and I am only trying to acquire more and more knowledge.

    My question is, since E1b1b was probably the most ancient subclade in the Levant (and Mesopotamia), when did other haplogroups like G, J1, J2, T, R1a and R1b enter the Levant and where did they come from?! Virtually none of these haplogroups are present in PPN/Natufian samples ( except for T in PPNB ). Any explanation or help would be surely helpful and thanked.

    Thanks again!
    from the paper
    Ancient DNA from Chalcolithic Israel reveals the role of population mixture in cultural transformation, by Harney et al. Nature Communications (2018).


    the individuals buried in Peqi’in Cave represent a relatively genetically homogenous population. This homogeneity is evident not only in the genome-wide analyses but also in the fact that most of the male individuals (nine out of ten) belong to the Y-chromosome haplogroup T, a lineage thought to have diversified in the Near East. This finding contrasts with both earlier (Neolithic and Epipaleolithic) Levantine populations, which were dominated by haplogroup E, and later Bronze Age individuals, all of whom belonged to haplogroup J.

    of the 22 samples, 10 where male and of these 9 where T1a1 ............8 of the T samples had blue eyes ..........and said to have come from northern Anatolia into the levant ( my guess would be part of Kura-Axes culture )

    All the T ydna vanished before Semetic languages arrived ...........weird ......some of these SNP's are later found in Morocco

    I agree that E haplogroup was the "original" marker of the Levant and SW-Asia and that T1a passed through with R1b-V88 to Egypt ( 2013 paper by Angela Smith ) and J Haplogroup followed and stayed in the Levant and SW-Asia

    European = 99.2%......Central Asian = 0.8% ....Yfull - 1460BC, Jura caves
    Father's Mtdna .........T2b17
    Grandfather's Mtdna .......T1a1e
    Sons Mtdna .......K1a4
    Maternal Grandfather paternal......I1d-P109...CTS6009
    Wife's Ydna .....R1a-Z282

    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS54+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, Y70078+ )

    The main negatives = ( M193-, P322-, P327-, Pages11- , L25- , CTS1848- )

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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    All the T ydna vanished before Semetic languages arrived ...........weird ......some of these SNP's are later found in Morocco
    Thanks!

    Although according to wikipedia ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_people#Genetics )

    The most common Y-DNA haplogroups among Assyrians is T-M184, at 41.5%, which is frequent in Middle Eastern Jews, Georgians, Druze and Somalians (and Ethiopians).

    If I recall correctly Akkadian-speaking people came from the Levant circa 3000 BCE .... So maybe the T among Semites is native Mesopotamian?
    Last edited by Moe12; 12-09-2018 at 06:37 PM.
    PaternaL Y-DNA: Possibly E-V12 (E1b1b1a1a1) [Egyptian] Peaks at Southern Egypt (74%)

    Maternal Y-DNA: J-P58+ (J1a2a1a2+) [Mesopotamian] Peaks at Southern Iraq (81%)

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    J1 may have arrived into the Levant some time during the Neolithic, maybe the late Neolithic going by the formation date of J-YSC234 which is associated with the Proto-Semites. Though J1 may have arrived earlier.
    Ftdna MyOrigins 2.0: 100% SE European

    23andme: 100% Balkan

    Geneplaza K25: 100% Greek-Albanian

    Ydna: J1>P58>YSC234>ZS241

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS5856*

    Mtdna: T1a1l

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    J1 may have arrived into the Levant some time during the Neolithic, maybe the late Neolithic going by the formation date of J-YSC234 which is associated with the Proto-Semites. Though J1 may have arrived earlier.
    Thanks! By the way did J1 enter the levant among pastoral herdsmen or among farmers like J2 and G?
    Last edited by Moe12; 12-09-2018 at 06:38 PM.
    PaternaL Y-DNA: Possibly E-V12 (E1b1b1a1a1) [Egyptian] Peaks at Southern Egypt (74%)

    Maternal Y-DNA: J-P58+ (J1a2a1a2+) [Mesopotamian] Peaks at Southern Iraq (81%)

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    So it seems E in NE Africa, Levant, and Mesopotamia, and then came T, and then later on came J.
    DNA Tribes

    Balto - North Slavic 22.4%
    Northwest European 18.8%
    Italian Greek 18.1%
    Persian Jewish 9%
    Iberian 6.3%
    Ashkenazi Jewish 5.9%
    Basque 4.3%
    Sephardic Jewish 4.1%
    Balochi Punjab 3.7%
    Caucasus 2.5%
    Urals 1.3%
    Finnish 1.2%
    Lebanese Cypriot 1%
    Other 1.4%

    Sephardic Jewish Turkey 18.8%
    Argyll and Bute Scottish Highlands 18.6%
    Sardinia 18.4%
    Lithuania 15.7%
    Russia Voronezh 7%
    Belgium 5.6%
    Syrian Jewish 4.9%
    Libyan Jewish 4.4%
    Russia Tver 2.4%
    Azerbaijani Jewish 2.2%

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moe12 View Post
    Thanks!

    Although according to wikipedia ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_people#Genetics )

    The most common Y-DNA haplogroups among Assyrians is T-M184, at 41.5%, which is frequent in Middle Eastern Jews, Georgians, Druze and Somalians (and Ethiopians).

    If I recall correctly Akkadian-speaking people came from the Levant circa 3000 BCE .... So maybe the T among Semites is native Mesopotamian?
    This is not a correct statistic for Assyrians in Iran, unless something has changed. Sure T-M184 is common, but I've never heard of it being THAT high. It should be R1b-M269 at 40% among Assyrian diaspora in Iran. Unfortunately I can't validate against that source since it's not open source.
    Last edited by ADW_1981; 12-09-2018 at 07:26 PM.
    YDNA: R1b-Z220 (A7066+) (1800's Stepney, London(Bethnal Green), UK George Wood b. 1782
    maternal-grandfather YDNA: prob. I1 Gurr, George 1843, Feversham, Kent, England.
    maternal-grandmother YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    maternal-ggrandfather YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton mdka Ireland(?) < 1800s

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