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Thread: Entry of haplogroups to the Levant

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    ^^To be clear, I would be quite surprised if the Proto-Semites lacked J1-L862, I honestly do not think we can say that J1 was "Semitised" because the time frame we're dealing with (Pottery Neolithic to Late Chalcolithic) precludes such a phenomenon, if my educated guess (that is to say the arrival of Iran_ChL-type ancestry during this time frame) is vindicated there's no avoiding the fact that J1-L862 was part of the earliest Semitic-speaking communities and therefore among the progenitors of Common Semitic speech.

    What we can definitely say however is that these intrusive migrants did not originally speak an Afroasiatic language, and so they certainly adopted Pre-Proto-Semitic and henceforth contributed to the language's "development".

    Edit: I might be giving the wrong impression here since, well, I am talking about my own lineage after all. But this isn't what truly motivates my comments, rather it is the need to explain the profound change in the region's uniparental landscape between the Neolithic and the Bronze Age. We are dealing with a phenomenon that is in many ways comparable to the spread of the R1 lineages throughout Europe during the Bronze Age, much like R1b and R1a, J1-L862 experienced severe founder effects (what was once called "star-like expansions") and seems to have followed a period of local decline and intense climate change, in both cases it is extremely likely the most durable aspect of these migrations was language change driven by nomadic groups. Between these two periods (the Neolithic and the Bronze Age), there is another period, the Eneolithic/Chalcolithic period, of which we know very little, the Peqi'in samples are a good start but unfortunately it would seem that this population was a biological dead-end. I sincerely hope we will soon get better genomic coverage of the Chalcolithic Levant, an area of great relevance to the region's demographic prehistory, and of course Mesopotamian data is sorely needed. What needs to be kept in mind though is that, at this stage, it looks as if the entire history of J1 is that of a minority lineage which "got lucky", other lineages such as E-M34 and J2b1-M205 are obviously tied to the earliest Semitic dispersals and might well have been much more prominent than J1.
    Yes that is a far better way in saying it, I was thinking that but didn't phrase it correctly. J1 probably did take part in the Proto-Semitic formation. What language group would you say these J1 carriers spoke? Given the time frame it may be extinct or perhaps we can't link it solely to one language family.
    Ftdna MyOrigins 2.0: 100% SE European

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    Geneplaza K25: 100% Greek-Albanian

    Ydna: J1>P58>YSC234>ZS241

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS5856*

    Mtdna: T1a1l

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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patarames View Post
    What is the earliest J1 near the Levant?

    I know about the J1 in Kura-Araxes.

    How about a "late scenario" where J1 arrived with Kura-Araxes related groups (via Mesopotamia?) into a proto-semitic world with E, T and some G2a?

    Then J2b came in EBA

    Then J2a in MBA

    Then R1 and Q in LBA

    Incredible that we still lack information from Mesopotamia.
    The earliest J1 in the Levant was found in the area around Amman(Ain Ghazal), Jordan dating to the early Bronze Age. It was J1>P58>Z2324, Z2324 is ancestral to YSC234/Z2313 which is one of the major J1 clades among Semitic speakers. There is also the middle Bronze Age sample from Sidon, Lebanon, which tested positive for FGC11. Also interesting to mention that J1-Z1828 was found in western Anatolia(Isparta) dating back to the early Bronze Age, this sample was older than the Bronze Age sample from Jordan iirc, though not part of the Levant. When it comes to the oldest J1 sample in general, that is the Paleolithic sample from Georgia(Satsurblia cave) that tested as J1-Y6305*.
    Last edited by Kelmendasi; 12-10-2018 at 12:09 PM.
    Ftdna MyOrigins 2.0: 100% SE European

    23andme: 100% Balkan

    Geneplaza K25: 100% Greek-Albanian

    Ydna: J1>P58>YSC234>ZS241

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS5856*

    Mtdna: T1a1l

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  5. #23
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    Is there possibly a connection between the haplogroup T people in chalcolithic Israel and Europe?

    T1a has been found in neolithic Bulgaria and T-M184 (?) in an elite male from the Varna culture. The Varna culture invented gold metallurgy, and gold metallurgy then appears in Israel at around the same time that these blue-eyed haplogroup T people arrive from the north.... As far as I'm aware, southeast Europe and Israel were the only places where there was gold metallurgy at this time.

    There are also some other similarities between the chalcolithic ceramics in Israel and those in Europe.

  6. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philjames View Post
    Is there possibly a connection between the haplogroup T people in chalcolithic Israel and Europe?

    T1a has been found in neolithic Bulgaria and T-M184 (?) in an elite male from the Varna culture. The Varna culture invented gold metallurgy, and gold metallurgy then appears in Israel at around the same time that these blue-eyed haplogroup T people arrive from the north.... As far as I'm aware, southeast Europe and Israel were the only places where there was gold metallurgy at this time.

    There are also some other similarities between the chalcolithic ceramics in Israel and those in Europe.
    Write to AndresT on this site ......he supports this theory................in ancient Neolithic Malek Bulgaria was found a few T1a ( with mtdna of T1e )
    AndresT also does the T snp tree

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...-M184_tree.png

    European = 99.2%......Central Asian = 0.8% ....Yfull - 1460BC, Jura caves
    Father's Mtdna .........T2b17
    Grandfather's Mtdna .......T1a1e
    Sons Mtdna .......K1a4
    Maternal Grandfather paternal......I1d-P109...CTS6009
    Wife's Ydna .....R1a-Z282

    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS54+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, Y70078+ )

    The main negatives = ( M193-, P322-, P327-, Pages11- , L25- , CTS1848- )

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  8. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    What kind of language do you think they spoke before switching to Afroasiatic? Which options should we consider most likely?
    We'll probably never know, there is no straightforward answer here either. Much of what I'm about to say is based on my personal observations, as you know Afroasiatic is my field of expertise.

    If we compare Proto-Semitic to its closest relatives, that is to say Proto-Libyco-Berber and Proto-Cushitic (in that order), there is one major difference in the formation of nouns. In most Afroasiatic languages, nouns follow a consonantal root pattern, originally these roots almost certainly were biradical, then by reduplication they yielded quadriradical and quinqueradical roots, the hallmark of a solid AA etymology is descent from a biradical root...
    In Common Semitic however, the most common pattern is triradical, the so-called "Semitic root" which is something as a misnomer since other AA languages (Berber, Ancient Egyptian among others) also have triradical roots which are essentially derived from biradical ones, the important difference though is that in Semitic the triradical root is much more common and only a small portion of these roots can be traced back to biradical roots. Agmon has also demonstrated that biradical roots are generally tied to pre-agricultural vocabulary while the vocabulary relating to Neolithic and Eneolithic technology is almost entirely derived from triradical roots (most of which cannot be derived from biradical roots). This suggests two things:

    • The oldest layer of Semitic vocabulary, the one with the most reliable AA etymologies, contains no words for agricultural material, thus making extremely unlikely any theory positing that Proto-AA was spoken by farmers and/or that AA speech initially spread with farmers. The logic behind this is that if Semitic is the branch to have stayed put in AA's agrarian cradle (namely the Fertile Crescent), it should have biradical roots for agrarian technology.
    • The appearance of a high number of triradical roots with loose or unreliable AA etymologies is bound to be due to language contact and not internal development (in which case these roots would have reliable biradical etyma).


    There are also other notable differences, for instance Proto-Libyco-Berber had no grammatical case (the case system in modern Berber dialects is recent), and arguably the Proto-Cushitic case system was closer to the original AA pattern (with an absolute case instead of an accusative one, PAA probably was a language of the ergative type). The Proto-Semitic case system is of the nominative-accusative type, with only three cases (nominative, accusative and genitive), where the former ergative became the nominative case. This is an innovation that Semitic does not share with its closest relatives, Libyco-Berber and Cushitic where the case system simply fell out of use. IMO what prompted the evolution of the AA case system towards a nominative-accusative alignment in Semitic was language contact, presumably with another language of the ergative type. Odds are this language was the one spoken by the intrusive group which brought Iran_ChL-type admixture.

    Looking at the other non-AA and non-IE languages we know of in the region, it's also likely that the language spoken by the aforementioned migrants had noun classes, was predominantly suffixing (not necessarily agglutinative) and had some form of vowel harmony (which left traces in several Semitic languages). The verb was probably placed at the end of the sentence. In terms of phonology, I'd surmise it already had a large consonant inventory which made the adoption of Pre-Proto-Semitic easier, combined with an extremely low number of vowels (possibly as low as one) which would explain the reduction of the AA vowel inventory to six vowels (3 short and 3 long). There might also be traces of an originally animate-inanimate grammatical gender system which was incorporated into Common Semitic gender system (where the "inanimate" category merged with the feminine gender). We're probably looking at a language which resembles Sumerian, Hurrian, Elamite and the languages of the North Caucasus more than anything else.

    Much of this is speculative, the evidence for language contact in the early stages of Semitic is not speculative however as it is based on comparative AA analysis... In fact, we can reasonably state that AA speech looks intrusive to SW Asia.
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 12-11-2018 at 03:06 AM.
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    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  10. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by ADW_1981 View Post
    This is not a correct statistic for Assyrians in Iran, unless something has changed. Sure T-M184 is common, but I've never heard of it being THAT high. It should be R1b-M269 at 40% among Assyrian diaspora in Iran. Unfortunately I can't validate against that source since it's not open source.
    The most I have seen is between 15 and 25% in Sansun and Van .....I think both are where Kurds live today

    European = 99.2%......Central Asian = 0.8% ....Yfull - 1460BC, Jura caves
    Father's Mtdna .........T2b17
    Grandfather's Mtdna .......T1a1e
    Sons Mtdna .......K1a4
    Maternal Grandfather paternal......I1d-P109...CTS6009
    Wife's Ydna .....R1a-Z282

    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS54+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, Y70078+ )

    The main negatives = ( M193-, P322-, P327-, Pages11- , L25- , CTS1848- )

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  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    The most I have seen is between 15 and 25% in Sansun and Van .....I think both are where Kurds live today
    Relative to Assyrians, I believe Kurds are known for having less R1b, J1, and T, and more R1a, J2, and E. Strange pattern.

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  14. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    In fact, we can reasonably state that AA speech looks intrusive to SW Asia.
    Intrusive from where? Who do you think it originated with?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Philjames View Post
    Intrusive from where? Who do you think it originated with?
    PAA homeland is not something concluded as of yet. Several homelands have been suggested:

    Red Sea/Horn of Africa theory

    Levant theory

    North Africa theory

    Sahel/Sahara theory

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afroasiatic_Urheimat

    Proto-Afro-Asiatic homeland would be perhaps closer to North/Horn of Africa? I'd like to see what Agamemnon thinks of it.
    Last edited by Moe12; 12-11-2018 at 01:48 PM.
    PaternaL Y-DNA: Possibly E-V12 (E1b1b1a1a1) [Egyptian] Peaks at Southern Egypt (74%)

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  17. #30
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    Interesting. So I suppose the pathway for J1 & J2 would have been:

    Iran -> Mesopotamia -> Levant (then J1&J2-dominated-Akkadians) -> Mesopotamia (back-migration??)
    Last edited by Moe12; 12-11-2018 at 02:06 PM.
    PaternaL Y-DNA: Possibly E-V12 (E1b1b1a1a1) [Egyptian] Peaks at Southern Egypt (74%)

    Maternal Y-DNA: J-P58+ (J1a2a1a2+) [Mesopotamian] Peaks at Southern Iraq (81%)

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