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Thread: Entry of haplogroups to the Levant

  1. #61
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    I noticed in North Lebanon a quite high concentration of Haplogroup L, is it Neolithic or more recent?

  2. #62
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    There's different types of L, but considering that L has yet to be found in Neolithic Europe or Anatolia, I presume it would be absent in Lebanon as well. It is probably largely associated with Copper Age and/or later movements involving people with Iran_N ancestry.
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  4. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    Haplogroup J-M304 is an entirely different beast and something of a mystery at this stage. Taken together, both of its branches (J1-M267 and J2-M172) account for ~60% of the lineages in SW Asia, making it by far the most widespread lineage in the area. For both branches, the oldest individuals sampled so far are associated with CHG-type populations (Satsurblia was J1-F1614 and Hotu was J2a-M410), there are however some oddballs (two Mesolithic Karelians, from Yuzhniy Oleni Ostrov and Popovo, were J1).
    Considering proto-Semitic was circa 4000-3750 BCE and J entered the Levant sometime around 3000 BCE, then would that mean that early Levantine Semites (e.g Ugaritics, Eblaites) were E-dominated rather than J? Perhaps J entered earlier than a Bronze Age time frame? I feel I am missing something here..

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  6. #64
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    I'm sorry if this has been answered, but does anyone know how the haplogroup Q came to the region? It's prevalent especially in Jews.

  7. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moe12 View Post
    Considering proto-Semitic was circa 4000-3750 BCE and J entered the Levant sometime around 3000 BCE, then would that mean that early Levantine Semites (e.g Ugaritics, Eblaites) were E-dominated rather than J? Perhaps J entered earlier than a Bronze Age time frame? I feel I am missing something here..
    Odds are that Y-DNA Haplogroup J already was in the Levant during the Late Chalcolithic period, this lineage in all likeliness initially arrived alongside Iran_ChL-type admixture. To quote Harney et al.:

    "The Levant_BA_South population may thus represent a remnant of a population that formed after an initial spread of Iran_ChL-related ancestry into the Levant that was not affected by the spread of an Anatolia_N-related population, or perhaps a reintroduction of a population without Anatolia_N-related ancestry to the region."

    All the male samples from the Levant_BA_South population were either J1-Z2324 or J2b1-M205. These Bronze Age individuals from Ayn Ghazal probably spoke an early western dialect of Amorite.

    Looking at J1-L862's phylogeny, this is the only scenario that truly makes sense. We witness a rapid diversification of lineages starting from the first half of the 4th millennium BCE, YFull currently places the MRCAs of L862, Z18297, ZS4307, ZS4312, Z2324, ZS2518, YSC235, PF4836 and YSC234 circa 5,600 years BP. Likewise for J2b1-M205, YFull places the MRCAs of M205, PF7321, CTS1969 and YP13 some 6,000 years BP. Something important was obviously happening back then. This fits both with the 5.9 kiloyear event and with the break up of Proto-Semitic during the first half of the 4th millennium (3750 BCE is the date given by Kitchen et al.'s bayesian phylogenetic analysis of Semitic languages, which also fits by the way).

    The theory according to which the ubiquity of these lineages in ancient (Jordan_EBA, Sidon_BA) and present-day Semitic speakers is some sort of happy coincidence that has to do with some sort of elusive migration from outside the Levant during the Early Bronze Age isn't very convincing to say the least. To answer your question, I would be astounded if it turned out that early Semitic-speaking populations in the Levant lacked J lineages. That's not to say some of them could not have been dominated by branches of E-M35 (chiefly E-M84 and E-L791) but this would inevitably have more to do with founder effects in the wake of early Semitic dispersals. Again, the proposal that J lineages were absent among the Proto-Semites sounds like special pleading at this stage.
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 04-04-2019 at 05:52 PM.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  9. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kulin View Post
    I'm sorry if this has been answered, but does anyone know how the haplogroup Q came to the region? It's prevalent especially in Jews.
    Haplogroup Q in the Levant dates back to the Indo-Iranian migrations in the region. Furthermore, According to Eupedia:

    Other subclades of Q1b1 are found throughout the Middle East, including, Armenia, Turkey, Iraq, Lebanon (2%), and in isolated places settled by the Phoenicians in southern Europe (Crete, Sicily, south-west Iberia). This means that Q1b must have been present in the Levant at latest around 1200 BCE, a very long time before the Hunnic migrations. One hypothesis is that Q1b reached the Middle East alongside haplogroup R1a-Z93 with the Indo-Iranian migrations from Central Asia during the Late Bronze Age. The age estimate for the Middle Eastern Q1b1a (L245) branch is 4,500 years, which corresponds roughly to the beginning of the Proto-Indo-Iranian expansion to Central Asia. The other branch, Q1b1b (Y2265) is found in Central Asia, Iran, Pakistan and India, a distribution that also agrees with an Indo-Iranian dispersal.

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  11. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post


    Eteocypriot still remains unclassified, looking at the epigraphic evidence though I really struggle to see how some linguists could possibly describe it as a Northwest Semitic language (let alone a Semitic language). What you might find interesting is that the earliest Philistine inscriptions we have (in the original Philistine language, not the coastal Canaanite dialect they later adopted) were written down using the Cypro-Minoan script, which is the parent script of the Cypriot syllabary in which Eteocypriot was written.

    Indeed Agamemnon. Eteocypriot is a bit of a misnomer anyway, and was first coined by Johannes Friedrich in 1932. It became an instrument of 'historical engineering' used by the British Colonial authorities to counter Greek nationalism on the island. It's was a kind of catch-all phrase to cover undeciphered languages using Cypriot syllabary. However, the languages spoken in Amathus and that in Golgoi, for example, are now suggested by some researchers to be separate. Eteocypriot now tends to be confined to Amathusian, as a result of the research of Thierry Petit in the 1990s.

    The earliest 'Eteocypriot' inscriptions possibly date from the 8thc BCE, but most relate to the 4thc BCE. They have also been found outside Amathus, at Paphos and Kourion, for example, so we know that the language was not totally confined to the Kingdom. Though sources indicate that the Amathusians claimed an 'autochthonous' status, this may have been an effort to claim political legitimacy. There is no way of currently knowing whether this Amathusian/Eteocypriot language was actually present on the island in the Bronze Age, using the earlier Cypro-Minoan script. What seems likely is that the swift rise of Greek amongst the population, may have pushed Amathusian to the confines of the Kingdom.

    As to Eteocypriot origins, it was mainly Mentz in 1955 who claimed that it was Semitic and related to Phoenician. Other theories include Caucasian, Lycian, Akkadian, Illyrian, and Urartian-Hurrian. We are still awaiting information on what non-Greek languages were spoken in Cyprus before the late Bronze Age.
    Last edited by Andrewid; 04-10-2019 at 06:19 AM.

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  13. #68
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    I'm curious if the Assyrians have Levantine input. Do they? I've read theories that the Akkadians (and therefore their descendants of Assyria & Babylon) migrated from Central Syria c. 3000 BC.

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