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Thread: A serious look at the minor Haplogroups of British Isles Y dna and its implications

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pribislav View Post
    Serbs already had a name before coming to the Balkans, so your servian etymology is invalid. Name is derived from the root Srb, the form S(e)rv appeared due to inability to pronounce -rb in most languages. Stop embarrassing yourself.
    Not true.
    First, i am not embarrassing myself, if you want i can quote DAI and how is explained therer the ethymology of Serb.
    Second, this is what the page of Wiki, written by your people say about this topic:
    Etymology
    See also: Names of the Serbs and Serbia and Origin hypotheses of the Serbs

    The origin of the name, "Serbia" is unclear. Various authors mentioned names of Serbs (Serbian: Srbi / Срби) and Sorbs (Upper Sorbian: Serbja; Lower Sorbian: Serby) in different variants: Surbii, Suurbi, Serbloi, Zeriuani, Sorabi, Surben, Sarbi, Serbii, Serboi, Zirbi, Surbi, Sorben,[21] etc. These authors used these names to refer to Serbs and Sorbs in areas where their historical (or current) presence was/is not disputed (notably in the Balkans and Lusatia), but there are also sources that mention same or similar names in other parts of the World (most notably in the Asiatic Sarmatia in the Caucasus).

    Theoretically, the root *sъrbъ has been variously connected with Russian paserb (пасерб, "stepson"), Ukrainian pryserbytysia (присербитися, "join in"), Old Indic sarbh- ("fight, cut, kill"), Latin sero ("make up, constitute"), and Greek siro (ειρω, "repeat").[22] However, Polish linguist Stanisław Rospond (1906–1982) derived the denomination of Srb from srbati (cf. sorbo, absorbo).[23] Sorbian scholar H. Schuster-Šewc suggested a connection with the Proto-Slavic verb for "to slurp" *sьrb-, with cognates such as сёрбать (Russian), сьорбати (Ukrainian), сёрбаць (Belarusian), srbati (Slovak), сърбам (Bulgarian) and серебати (Old Russian).[24]

    From 1945 to 1963, the official name for Serbia was the People's Republic of Serbia, which became the Socialist Republic of Serbia from 1963 to 1990. Since 1990, the official name of the country is the "Republic of Serbia". However, between the period from 1992 to 2006, the official names of the country were the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and the State Union of Serbia and Montenegro.[13]

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Labėria View Post
    Wikipedia is not a professional site, it`s an open platform many times subjects of biased interpretations. We know that there are many problems with Wiki.
    Of course, when Sebs and other slavs arrived in Balcans they found other people, it's obvious. But i don`t know how you arrived in the conclusion that the bulk of the serbs are Thracians or Triballi. We don`t know for sure if the Triballi were a Thracian or Illyrian tribe, first of all.
    did you look at the links?.....without doing this , wiki is pointless

    European = 99.2%......Central Asian = 0.8% ....Yfull - 1460BC, Jura caves
    Father's Mtdna .........T2b17
    Grandfather's Mtdna .......T1a1e
    Sons Mtdna .......K1a4
    Maternal Grandfather paternal......I1d-P109...CTS6009
    Wife's Ydna .....R1a-Z282

    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS54+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, Y70078+ )

    The main negatives = ( M193-, P322-, P327-, Pages11- , L25- , CTS1848- )

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    did you look at the links?.....without doing this , wiki is pointless
    About what i have to look, that the bulk of serbs are Triballi?

  4. #54
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    No discussion on H haplogroup?

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by ADW_1981 View Post
    One of the things that struck me as odd was the old data which supported high amounts of E-V13 in Wales. It would be nice to see if there is any Neolithic or Bronze Age samples of ancient Wales and see if something lurks within. The rest of Britain and Ireland seem to support I2/I from the Neolithic inhabitants followed by R1b BB. Then there is Cheddar Man's YDNA which was never revealed...
    I'm surprised we haven't heard much about the Welsh E-V13 lately.
    Y-DNA: I-A14097(Scotland),
    Big Y: I-F2642>Y1966>Y3649>A13241>Y3647>A14097 (1,850 YBP)
    mtDNA: pending (Westeremden, Netherlands)
    Other lines:
    R-M222 x2, R-L21 x2, I-M223, R-S1141, R-U198 & R-U106, mtHg J1c3
    Known ancestry
    Paternal: Britain & Ireland, France and Germany
    Maternal: Netherlands

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean View Post
    I'm surprised we haven't heard much about the Welsh E-V13 lately.
    Looking at the numbers from FTDNA, the percentage of E-V13 for the select countries in NW Europe is as follows:

    Belgium 2%
    Wales 1.7%
    England 1.25%
    Netherlands 1%
    Scotland 0.75%
    Ireland 0.6%

    While Wales does have the highest in Britain and Ireland, it is nothing dramatic. In terms of other lineages, again using FTDNA, a few months ago I tracked the haplogroups that appeared in Barcin, Turkey during Anatolia Neolithic (G2a,T1a,I2c,J2a,H2) to see the modern distributions. The total percentage of those haplogroups for each country is as follows:

    Belgium 10.3%
    Netherlands 7.1%
    Wales 4.2%
    England 3.9%
    Sweden 2.7%
    Scotland 1.9%
    Norway 1.7%
    Ireland 1.6%

    It follows a similar pattern to E-V13, with the only difference being that the Netherlands has a higher percentage of those lineages than England and Wales, while having a lower amount of E-V13. This is only a simple overview, as some of those lineages were also spread later than the Neolithic. I am still not sure how large the Roman impact was in Britain, and whether it was responsible for the Southern shift we see in Britain, especially England.
    Last edited by morganman3; 02-08-2019 at 05:49 PM.

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    A very interesting thing that archaeologists, but also historians have been talking about recently is the possibility of continued Byzantine suzerainty over Britain, or at least a pro forma understanding or even aspiration among the Britons that they were Christian subjects of Rome, resisting the pagan Anglo-Saxons, well into the sixth and the seventh centuries. I quote from Caitlin Green, an archaeologist, below:

    The author of the account discussed here is Harun ibn Yahya, a Syrian who was probably captured at Ascalon (Ashkelon, Israel) sometime around AD 886 by Byzantine pirates and kept prisoner at Constantinople for a period, before being released and subsequently travelling to Rome. ... Needless to say, there are several points of interest in this account. Perhaps the most important of these is the statement that 'the city (capital) of Bartīniyah (Britain)' is 'ruled by seven kings'... The second point of interest is the description of Britain as 'the last of the lands of the Greeks', that is the most oceanward land of the Rūm or Byzantines. Dunlop considered this to be a statement deriving from Harun ibn Yahya's time in Constantinople, and it might simply be interpreted as reflecting the fact that Britain was once a part of the Roman Empire, nearly 500 years earlier—that is to say, Britain is 'the last of the [former] lands of the Rūm'. However, this is not what he says in the extract preserved by Ibn Rustah, which was written in the present tense and implies that Harun ibn Yahya believed Britain actually still lay 'at the outer fringes of the Byzantine Empire', or at least that the Byzantines considered it to be potentially still within their sway.(7) In this context, it is worth recalling that Procopius, writing in the mid-sixth century—around a century and a half after Britain is usually considered to have ceased to be part of the Roman Empire—mentions both that the emperor Justinian was then making large payments of subsidies to Britain (Secret History, XIX.13) and that Justinian's leading imperial general, Belisarius, offered Britain to the Ostrogoths in exchange for Sicily (Wars, VI.vi.28). Whilst both suggestions could have been a fantasy or meant flippantly, it is equally possible that they might be a genuine reflection of an early Byzantine imperial ideology that continued to consider Britain to be somehow part of Byzantium's holdings, albeit a distant one, as a number of commentators including Eurydice Georganteli, J. O. Ward and Ian Wood have pointed out.(8)

    Certainly, with regard to the latter possibility, it has to be admitted that there is now considerable archaeological evidence for Byzantine trading and interaction with southern and western Britain in the fifth and sixth centuries, focussed especially on Tintagel but also more widely, and that the coin evidence from sites in western Britain and along the south coast has been recently interpreted as reflecting continuing relations into the seventh century too.(9) Likewise, a recent isotopic analysis of burials in western Britain suggests that people who had probably grown up in Byzantine North Africa were actually being buried here in the post-Roman period, with one of these individuals being radiocarbon-dated to the late seventh century at the earliest—although it cannot be established with certainty, this might well be seen as the burial of someone brought up during the last days of Byzantine Carthage before the Arab conquest of the city in 697/8, and the Byzantine coin evidence from the seventh-century in Britain is certainly dominated by Carthaginian issues.(10) We should also note here the seventh-century Life of St John the Almsgiver, which tells of a ship from Alexandria that visited Britain around AD 610–620 and exchanged a cargo of corn for one of tin, a tale that is undoubtedly suggestive as to seventh-century contacts and continued familiarity, and the Byzantine text of the 630s known as the Doctrina Iacobi nuper baptizati, which offers a very similar concept to Harun ibn Yahya, claiming that 'Roman lands' then extended from Britain (βρεττανίας) to Africa.(11)

    Perhaps most interesting of all, however, is the early medieval memorial stone at Penmachno, North Wales, which dates itself with reference to a Byzantine consulship, stating that it was erected 'in the time of the consul Justin'. This has often been thought to refer to the consulship of Justinus in AD 540, which would itself be a point of considerable significance, but it has recently been powerfully argued that the consul in question is actually more probably the Emperor Justin II himself, who was consul successively from 567–79. Such a situation would, of course, be extremely noteworthy in the present context, and the stone's erection and use of consular dating has consequently been considered by Thomas Charles-Edwards to reflect 'British loyalty to the Emperor Justin' and an affirmation that the erectors of the stone believed that they 'still belonged to the far-flung and loose-knit community of citizens of which he was the head'.(12)
    From another article:

    A survey of dental enamel recovered from four early medieval cemeteries in South Wales reveals at least twelve individuals spread across three of the cemeteries who have oxygen isotope values above the upper end of the British range, representing more than a third of the total number of individuals investigated from these burial grounds.(4) ... Values between -4.0‰ and -3.5‰ are again found in North Africa but are even rarer in Europe, being only reported from a small area around Cįdiz, southwest Spain, where groundwater values as high as -3.5‰ have been noted, whilst even higher values up to 0‰ and beyond are encountered only in Africa and Arabia.(5) As such, the above oxygen isotope results from early medieval South Wales are clearly of considerable potential interest to historians and archaeologists.

    With regard to the interpretation of this evidence, several points need to be made. First and foremost, it should be remembered that there is now a significant body of archaeological evidence that is usually thought to indicate the direct importation of goods from North Africa and the eastern Mediterranean into western Britain in the post-Roman period, probably beginning in the late fifth century AD and continuing into the sixth. The evidence for this consists of finds of Mediterranean amphorae sherds, used for transporting wine and olive oil, along with sherds of African Red Slip-Ware (ARSW) from the Carthage region and Phocaean Red Slip-Ware (PRSW) from western Asia Minor, with north-eastern Mediterranean material dominating the trade at first followed by surge in North African imports in the middle third of the sixth century AD. This material is primarily found at the important post-Roman high-status promontory fort of Tintagel, Cornwall, but it also occurs more widely throughout the south-west and along the western coast of Britain, including in South Wales, and is thought to have potentially arrived in Britain as a result of direct (and directed) imperial trade aimed primarily at procuring tin in the period c. 475–550.(6) Needless to say, this direct trade between the Mediterranean and Atlantic Britain supplies an obvious context for the apparent presence of migrants from southern Iberia and/or North Africa revealed by the isotopic material mentioned above, and it is indeed considered the most credible interpretation by the authors of the dental enamel survey... Moreover, the possibility that migrant groups may well have been living in South Wales in the early medieval period is further heightened by the fact three of the individuals with notably enriched values were women and two were non-adults, implying the presence of families and further countering the idea that the post-Roman direct trade between the Mediterranean and Atlantic Britain was carried out solely by male, mercantile groups who stayed only for a brief period of time.

    See also the Chi-Ro stones and various Latin stone inscriptions, now looking very primitive and almost Runic, in Cornwall and Wales in the sixth and seventh centuries.

    The dominance of the Romano-British population in Western Britain, and the continuing contacts with the Mediterranean, may explain the presence of various exotic clades in this region.

    I have always thought that the stories of how former Roman subjects dealt with the complete and total collapse of the world they knew is one of the most touching in all history. There are many such records, of the final visits to Rome by soldier-emissaries from far-off garrisons in the Roman borderlands in Germany and the Low countries, requesting money and material, or even just to check if the lights were still on in the Imperial capital, after the soldiers believed they had been abandoned for so many years due to the lack of communications. Or efforts of priests and church leaders in organising the local populace in a final attempt at self-defense in walled cities in the North, resisting the continual Germanic encroachments and depredations in the countryside as their communications with the outside world grew ever more tenuous... Such heroic efforts, at least in part motivated by the loyalty to Romanitas, sustained by precisely those locals who were the least touched by it when the Empire was at its height, were the final gasps of the classical age in Western Europe--something I find quite ironic and kinda moving.
    Last edited by Ryukendo; 02-09-2019 at 06:46 AM.
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