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Thread: A serious look at the minor Haplogroups of British Isles Y dna and its implications

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Principe View Post
    Well its general historical consensus, even at university when I took a class on the Hellenistic period, my teacher dedicated an entire class on Macedonia pre Alexander and it was known in those days that Macedonia was tri ethnic with Greeks, Thracians and Illyrians. Even many other scholars, there is not much debate on this topic, Illyrian tribes did inhabit both Albania and Macedonia.

    There was less Illyrians further South because there was areas of different ethnic groups (Greeks and Thracians) but they still consisted a majority at least in what is modern Albania, in Macedonia it is another much more complicated scenario as the Illyrians were mostly on West neighboring modern Albania and Serbia.

    Unfortunately in all forums Balkan discussions are too heated and hostile, they always end in political drama. It would be nice to see one day when all Balkan ethnicities working together, it would make research in the area much more friendly and potentially figure out which clades belong to which historical ethnicities.

    As for your query, well I totally disagree, the high number of E-V13 is actually due to small population with rapid expansion, and what we see amongst Albanians is actually a high diversity of E-V13 lineages, so I highly doubt E-V13 was a minor lineage amongst Illyrians, now does that mean all E-V13 was Illyrian no absolutely but they definitely carried some E-V13 as did the Thracians, the real question is how do we differentiate which branches are Illyrian and which are Thracian. The one thing for sure at least in my opinion all British E-V13>Z5017 and Z5018 lineages originate from the Balkans and Danubian/Carpathian region.
    In the 260 page paper ..uni of adelaide on roman accounts of illyrium...the term danubian carphatian is a dacian/thracian term while illyrian is termed danubian sava

    European = 99.2%......Central Asian = 0.8% ....Yfull - 1460BC, Jura caves
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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    In the 260 page paper ..uni of adelaide on roman accounts of illyrium...the term danubian carphatian is a dacian/thracian term while illyrian is termed danubian sava
    Yes Vettor, study your Balkan origin young Ostrogoth

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  4. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Principe View Post
    Well its general historical consensus, even at university when I took a class on the Hellenistic period, my teacher dedicated an entire class on Macedonia pre Alexander and it was known in those days that Macedonia was tri ethnic with Greeks, Thracians and Illyrians. Even many other scholars, there is not much debate on this topic, Illyrian tribes did inhabit both Albania and Macedonia.
    I almost have said that too but not about pre-Alexander Macedonia but about Macedonia c. 2000 years ago. When Strabo lived, for example, based on what he writes there seem to have been Macedonians, Epirotans, Illyrians, Thracians and also Ionians in some coastal regions at least.

    You should clarify, though, what you mean by 'Macedonia'. I guess you are not referring to the 'modern geographical region of Macedonia'.

    Also, I doubt there are data to support what you say, even if someone considers it likely. The opinion of a University professor is just an opinion without data of some short and I doubt there are any.

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    Hmm there is some evidence based on funeral material context (collected for the most part since the 1600s) around York, England - that those "Roman Gladiators" perhaps some of them were rather soldiers or auxiliaries - including my match 6drif-3 - since when I did the research for the funeral material not one Gladiator item showed up - but plenty of evidence for "military" funeral material... Dewsloth already linked the thread with my research on funeral material from the Driffield and Mount area SW of York... but I'll post it here also:

    Roman Tombstones and/or funeral fragments found on the Mount - on or very near Driffield Terrace

    (72) A inscribed tombstone found in 1911 while digging for a drain at the Mount School near Driffield Terrace: Tombstone of Lucius Baebius Crescens from Augusta Vindelicorum (modern day Augsburg), soldier of the Sixth Legion Victorious, Loyal and Faithful. 43 years of age and 23 years of service – enlisted when he was 20. His heir has this tombstone made for his friend.
    (77) A inscribed tombstone found in 1859 used as a cover/lid for coffin number 103 on Driffield Estate, the Mount. It says “To the spirits of the departed. To Flavia Augustina. She lived 39 years, 7 months, 11 days. Her son,.... nius Augustinus, lived 1 year 3 days, .... lived 1 year, 9 months, 5 days. Caeresius [August]inus, veteran of the Sixth Legion Victorious, had (this stone) made for his dearest wife and himself.”
    (81) Tombstone fragment (Fig. 84), of gritstone, 1 ft. by 1 ft. 4 ins. by 6 ins., comprising the bottom of the relief and part of the first two lines of the inscription, together with the left-hand top corner of the die. The relief shows on the left a pet dog crouching left and, on the right, the lower part of a bust of Julia Secunda, holding another creature now indistinguishable. From the Driffield Estate, The Mount.
    (82) Tombstone (Plate 55), of gritstone, rectangular, 3 ft. 3 ins. by 4 ft. 9 ins. by 9 ins. An architectural frame encloses a round-headed niche in which is a relief of a funeral feast; in the spandrels are pine-cones. Below the relief is the inscription in a simple moulded sunk panel. The central figure of the relief is Julia Velva, whose head, with hair parted in the middle, and torso are alone visible, reclining on a couch and propping her head on her left arm, which rests on a cushion. She holds a wine jar in her right hand. The couch has a very thick mattress, high sides and legs knobbed at the top but otherwise plain. In front of the couch, left to right, are shown a young girl seated on a basket chair and clasping a pet bird, a three-legged table on which are dishes of food, a boy standing with his right hand on the table and holding a jug in his left, while Aurelius Mercurialis, bearded, stands in front of a larger table with claw feet, and holds a scroll in his right hand. Found in 1922, in making Albemarle Road, 15 yds. from The Mount. It says “To the spirits of the departed and to Julia Velva. She lived 50 years, most dutifully. Aurelius Mercurialis, her heir, had (this tombstone) made. He made it while alive for himself and his family.”
    (86) Tombstone fragments (Plate 52), two, of gritstone, adjacent and measuring together 1 ft. 9 ins. by 1 ft. 4 ins. by 7 ins. The inscription is in a moulded panel, with a small relief of a porpoise in the field above. From the Driffield Estate, The Mount.
    (87) Tombstone fragment (Plate 52. Fig. 85), of gritstone, 1 ft. 8½ ins. by 1 ft. 3½ ins. by 5½ ins., with relief above and inscription below, both in panels with simple moulded frames. Of the relief only the end of a scroll or piece of strapwork remains, and part of the M of D.M., of the inscription only the end of the first and second lines. Found on the Driffield Estate, The Mount (see Burials, IV Region, (m)). D(IS)] M(ANIBVS)/ ...... VIVS ▵ FE/ ....... VS/ ..... CIL, 259; YMH, 62.
    (88) Tombstone fragments (Plate 52. Fig. 85), two, of gritstone, 1 ft. 1 in. by 1 ft. and 1 ft. 4 ins. by 1 ft. 8 ins., both by 7 ins., with the inscription in a sunk panel with a moulded frame. From the Driffield Estate (Driffield and Dalton Terraces) on the N.W. side of The Mount. It says “'To the spirits of the departed.... Manlius Crescens, son of..., from ... ..... a, veteran of the Sixth Legion Victorious, Ca . . . Pri. . . . and M. . .” There is hardly room for the tribe as well as the filiation of Crescens, and his origo must have been a short name, such as Parma. The two names below are presumably the nomen and cognomen of one heir followed by et, which would introduce the name of another. CIL, 259a; EE, III, 79; YMH, 51.
    (91) Tomb Tablet fragment (Plate 52), of gritstone, 2 ft. 4 ins. by 2 ft. 7 ins. by 8 ins., with the inscription in a moulded panel, bordered by ansae designed in a variant pelta-pattern with goose-head terminals. Found in 1852 at Driffield Terrace, The Mount. It says “To .... son of Caius, of the Claudian tribe from Novaria .... of the Ninth Legion Hispana. His freedmen heirs made (this tomb) for a well deserving patron.” The voting-tribe of Novaria was the tribus Claudia. There is no room on the stone for a cognomen, and this is an example of its absence after A.D. 70.
    (95) Tombstone (Plate 53), of gritstone, 2 ft. 6 ins. by 3 ft. 10 ins. by 7 ins., the inscribed lower part missing. In a niche, formed by a shouldered arch and architectural frame, stands a male figure, wearing a tunic and cloak and holding in his left hand a scroll, in his right a vine branch, symbol of a centurion. The feet are broken away. In the spandrels of the arch are rosettes and above its crown is a bull's head with sacrificial fillets. There are mortice holes in each side of the stone, for fixing it into a monument. Found in 1852 in Driffield Terrace at a depth of 3 ft. to 4 ft. – part of a Centurion’s tombstone/funeral monument.
    (99) Tombstone fragment (Plate 54), of gritstone, 10 ins. by 12 ins. by 4 ins., with part of a relief showing a leg from below the knee with a sandalled foot. The attitude suggests a rider and the object with two borders behind the leg may be a saddle-cloth. Found before 1860 in Driffield Terrace or Dalton Terrace, The Mount. Piece of an auxiliary cavalryman’s tombstone?
    (103) Coffin (Plate 57. Fig. 86), of gritstone, 7 ft. 4 ins. by 2 ft. 3 ins. by 2 ft. 4 ins. The inscription is contained in a moulded panel on the long side of the coffin, flanked by the letters D. and M. each beyond bracket-like scrolls. Found in 1859, in Dalton Terrace (N.G. 59355108) (see Burials, IV Region, (m), vi). The coffin had been reused for a male burial in gypsum, and the tombstone of Flavia Augustina (see No. 77) formed its lid. The lettering showed traces of original red paint, now blotted out by a modern substitute. “To the spirits of the departed (and) to the good lady Aelia Severa, once the wife of Caecilius Rufus. She lived 27 years 9 months and 4 days. Caecilius Musicus his freedman placed (this monument).' Mommsen (Strafrecht, 1035, 5) observes that honesta femina might apply to the wife or daughter of a Decurion/cavalry officer.
    108) Coffin (Plate 56), of gritstone, 4 ft. by 1 ft. 10 ins. by 1 ft. 4½ ins. with a ridged lid 9 ins. high. Matching recesses indicate where the lid had originally been clamped. The coffin when found, N.W. of The Mount, on the railway line S. of Holgate railway bridge (N.G. 59155120), had been reused for the burial of a child older than the inscription indicates. To the spirits of the departed. For Simplicia Florentina, a most innocent soul, who lived 10 months, Felicius Simplex, her father, of the Sixth Legion Victorious, made (this memorial).' The LEG · VI · V has been added to the inscription as an after-thought in a much less monumental style of lettering, a centurial sign being added before PATER.
    (109) Coffin (Plate 57. Fig. 86), of gritstone, very much broken, 6 ft. 10 ins. by 2 ft. 3 ins. by 2 ft. 3 ins. Found at the beginning of the 19th century between The Mount and Driffield Terrace. To the memory of Valerius Theodorianus, of Nomentum. He lived 35 years, 6 months: I, Theodora his mother, bought (this coffin) for his sake.' A fragment of another inscribed stone now supports the left-hand end of the coffin.
    (112) Coffin fragment (Plate 56), relief of gritstone, 11½ ins. by 17 ins. by 4 ins., from the right-hand edge of the front. A naked amorino, with feathered wings, turns half right, with arms poised to support the ansa or pelta bordering an inscribed panel now missing. Found in 1860, near The Mount.
    (116) Head (Plate 63), of a man, slightly smaller than life size, 7 ins. by 5 ins., in limestone; it is broken off just below the nose. The work is vigorously carved; the protuberant ears, prominent high cheek-bones, and hair swept to a fringe are reminiscent of the style and period of the tombstone of Duccius Rufinus (No. 75). Found on Driffield Estate, The Mount (see Burials, IV Region, (m)). It was probably from a funerary monument.
    (117) Bust (Plate 62), of a man, approximately life size 18 ins. high, in gritstone. It is heavily weathered, but has the look of a portrait-bust. Found on Driffield Estate, The Mount (see Burials, IV Region, (m)). It was probably from a funerary monument.
    (120) Sphinx (Plate 62), funerary, of gritstone, 1 ft. 3 ins. by 2 ft. 6 ins. by 1 ft. 8 ins. The creature is conceived as a nude crouched female, with melancholy upward gaze half-left. Her hair hangs in six tresses, divided over the shoulders and back. The breasts are prominent, and wings and a long tail complete the figure. The hands and feet are missing, together with the front of the pedestal. There is no inscription, contrary to previous fancy. Found in 1852, in Driffield Terrace, The Mount.

    Edit: there was evidence for some funeral markers among the Driffield guys - but none were actually found that I know of from the actual dig - just that there was evidence of libation pits and markers that "had" been there. That is the problem with that site - things were knocked and moved around in the 1500+ years that followed their burial and I am assuming that the stuff found a few hundred years back was actually associated with the site... since then how many people took or dug up or moved stuff that was associated with the actual site when they were building stuff back in the day or farming. This is why sites like the Niederstotzingen guys are so important - it's basically unchanged (except for some contemporary disturbance a bit after they were buried) since they were buried around 600 AD... a great site for burial context - unlike the Driffield guys since they are buried right along the road and among prominent burials from the Roman period - what does that mean? I wish we had more context - a grave marker or tombstone at least! Oh well I'll wait till we hopefully have some DF98 in another, better contextual burial! The context that I can draw from the Driffield burials and 3drif-16 and 6drif-3 (the U106 DF96er and DF98er respectively)... is that they lived very active and violent lives - but then that was a turbulent period in history!
    Last edited by Bollox79; 12-13-2018 at 04:07 AM.
    Y-DNA: 4th GGF Adam Weaver born 1785 in Pennsylvania (most likely German) - Sergeant in US 17th Infantry, War of 1812: R1b-U106-Z381-Z156-Z305/306/307-Z304-DF98-S1911-S1894/S1900-S4004/FGC14818/FGC14823-FGC14816/FGC14817 shared with 6drif-3!

    mtDNA: 3rd GGM Bridget Dana b. 1843 Ireland - T2b2b - Ireland, Scandinavia and Hungary - T2b female warrior Grave Bj 581 near Birka, Sweden. Relative of King Bela III of Hungary (his Y-DNA and autosomal kinsman buried near him had mtDNA T2b2b1)!

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  8. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Principe View Post
    Well its general historical consensus, even at university when I took a class on the Hellenistic period, my teacher dedicated an entire class on Macedonia pre Alexander and it was known in those days that Macedonia was tri ethnic with Greeks, Thracians and Illyrians. Even many other scholars, there is not much debate on this topic, Illyrian tribes did inhabit both Albania and Macedonia.

    There was less Illyrians further South because there was areas of different ethnic groups (Greeks and Thracians) but they still consisted a majority at least in what is modern Albania, in Macedonia it is another much more complicated scenario as the Illyrians were mostly on West neighboring modern Albania and Serbia.

    Unfortunately in all forums Balkan discussions are too heated and hostile, they always end in political drama. It would be nice to see one day when all Balkan ethnicities working together, it would make research in the area much more friendly and potentially figure out which clades belong to which historical ethnicities.

    As for your query, well I totally disagree, the high number of E-V13 is actually due to small population with rapid expansion, and what we see amongst Albanians is actually a high diversity of E-V13 lineages, so I highly doubt E-V13 was a minor lineage amongst Illyrians, now does that mean all E-V13 was Illyrian no absolutely but they definitely carried some E-V13 as did the Thracians, the real question is how do we differentiate which branches are Illyrian and which are Thracian. The one thing for sure at least in my opinion all British E-V13>Z5017 and Z5018 lineages originate from the Balkans and Danubian/Carpathian region.
    Sorry to intervene in the midst of the discussion, but why does E-V13 seems to be high only in Albania/Kosovo? Serbia for example does not have a high E-V13 frequency (it's around 7-13%) yet Illyrians did inhabit parts of it (unless Dalmatians and Dardanians were not genetically very similar to Albania's-Illyrians?).
    Last edited by Moe12; 12-13-2018 at 02:09 PM.
    I am a beginner for all of this, so please bear with me!

    (Likely) L-M349

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  10. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moe12 View Post
    Sorry to intervene in the midst of the discussion, but why does E-V13 seems to be high only in Albania/Kosovo? Serbia for example does not have a high E-V13 frequency (it's around 7-13%) yet Illyrians did inhabit parts of it (unless Dalmatians and Dardanians were not genetically very similar to Albania's-Illyrians?).
    Its no problem Moe, I wrote it in another reply, its because of small population and rapid expansion, it could have made E-V13’s numbers boom amongst Albanians and Kosovars, the map that ph2ter posted shows there’s hot spots of like 20% of E-V13 in Serbia, so there is that, also Serbia has quite a bit of Slavic ancestry and this could have diluted the E-V13 frequency. Who knows how much E-V13 existed amongst ancient Illyrians, that’s going to be an adna answer which we’ll probably have to wait for, I think E-V13 was important for all ancient Balkan ethnicities.
    My Y Line: J2a-L210>Z489>Z482>Y15222

    My Maternal Y: R1b-U152>Z36>Y156527

    Other Y lines: 3x Great Grandfather on Maternal side: J2a-S25258>SK1336, 5x Great Grandfather on Maternal side: E-V13>A7135, 6x Great Grandfather on Maternal side: J1-Z2331>L829

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  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    In the 260 page paper ..uni of adelaide on roman accounts of illyrium...the term danubian carphatian is a dacian/thracian term while illyrian is termed danubian sava
    This is completely missing the entire point of what I answered you.
    My Y Line: J2a-L210>Z489>Z482>Y15222

    My Maternal Y: R1b-U152>Z36>Y156527

    Other Y lines: 3x Great Grandfather on Maternal side: J2a-S25258>SK1336, 5x Great Grandfather on Maternal side: E-V13>A7135, 6x Great Grandfather on Maternal side: J1-Z2331>L829

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kanenas View Post
    I almost have said that too but not about pre-Alexander Macedonia but about Macedonia c. 2000 years ago. When Strabo lived, for example, based on what he writes there seem to have been Macedonians, Epirotans, Illyrians, Thracians and also Ionians in some coastal regions at least.

    You should clarify, though, what you mean by 'Macedonia'. I guess you are not referring to the 'modern geographical region of Macedonia'.

    Also, I doubt there are data to support what you say, even if someone considers it likely. The opinion of a University professor is just an opinion without data of some short and I doubt there are any.
    I mean both tbh, and you can say whatever you want too, the material culture of the ancient Macedonians is more similar to Thracian material than it is to Greek (pre-Alexander) yet nobody doubts that they were Greek speakers, ancient Macedonia was at a crossroads of ancient Balkan cultures.
    My Y Line: J2a-L210>Z489>Z482>Y15222

    My Maternal Y: R1b-U152>Z36>Y156527

    Other Y lines: 3x Great Grandfather on Maternal side: J2a-S25258>SK1336, 5x Great Grandfather on Maternal side: E-V13>A7135, 6x Great Grandfather on Maternal side: J1-Z2331>L829

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    A spread from the north Mediterranean >north to continental Europe should also be considered. E-V13 is considerably higher in Italy and the western Balkans than anywhere else in Europe. There is no known migration that goes from the Carpathians to the south of Italy for instance, in fact that would be ridiculous in recent times. I suspect E-V13 was a migrant of the Danubian farmers, but it may have also spread amongst Mediterranean farmers. Our samples are quite meagre from many regions, central and southern Italy included.
    YDNA: R1b-Z220 (A7066+) (1800's Stepney, London(Bethnal Green), UK George Wood b. 1782
    maternal-grandfather YDNA: prob. I1 Gurr, George 1843, Feversham, Kent, England.
    maternal-grandmother YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    maternal-ggrandfather YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton mdka Ireland(?) < 1800s

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  18. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Principe View Post
    This is completely missing the entire point of what I answered you.
    from the middle ages up to the 18th century , maybe even beyond .............the scholars state that the 14 epirote tribes are illyrian ...........they state, from the alps to the mainland opposite corfu ( the Ambracia gulf ) are illyrians.

    Scylax notes that only beyond Ambracia gulf, the Peneus and the town or mountain of Homotion in Magnesia, had the Greeks begun to inhabit the region in a compact manner.

    In Strabo’s time, the barbarians owned large parts of Greece, and he reports that the Thracians inhabited Macedonia and parts of Thessaly at that time.

    Strabo and Livy places illyrian tribes in the northern alps in the late bronze age.


    scholar like, Johann Thunmann, (Über die Geschichte und Sprache der Albaner und der Wlachen in Leipzig 1774), kept this theory of , Epirote is Illyrian theory and basically noting that the "invaders" where the Greeks from south of the Ambracia Gulf.

    Italian renaissance scholars always state...Skandenberg prince of the Epirotes when speaking of albanian affairs.

    Dunubian-Carpathian and Danubian-Sava are completely different places...............this is because the danube runs from southern Germany to the black sea, its a long river and one needs to be precise in what part they refer to

    In regards to E-V13 , it would seem to me to have its origins in the Romans referred to as Moesia -Superior ............and yes a few of one ydna marker can create many, the answer is neither here or there as we have very many SNP's from very many haplogroups

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moesia...4thcentury.png
    Last edited by vettor; 12-13-2018 at 05:33 PM.

    European = 99.2%......Central Asian = 0.8% ....Yfull - 1460BC, Jura caves
    Father's Mtdna .........T2b17
    Grandfather's Mtdna .......T1a1e
    Sons Mtdna .......K1a4
    Maternal Grandfather paternal......I1d-P109...CTS6009
    Wife's Ydna .....R1a-Z282

    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS54+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, Y70078+ )

    The main negatives = ( M193-, P322-, P327-, Pages11- , L25- , CTS1848- )

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