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Thread: Who have more genuine "Arab" ancestry -- Lebanese, or Tunisians/Algerians?

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingofPhoenicia001 View Post
    I found a kit with the surname Maalouf. That’s a know Ghassinid family, I believe. 2nd result in mixed mode could be that ancient ancestry?

    K15
    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 East_Med 49.11
    2 West_Asian 18.32
    3 Red_Sea 12.94
    4 West_Med 11.23
    5 Atlantic 4.68
    6 Southeast_Asian 1.24
    7 Eastern_Euro 1.09
    8 South_Asian 0.98
    9 Baltic 0.25
    10 Northeast_African 0.15

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Lebanese_Christian 3.48
    2 Samaritan 5.12
    3 Lebanese_Druze 5.93
    4 Palestinian 8.71
    5 Lebanese_Muslim 9.76
    6 Cyprian 10.56
    7 Syrian 10.7
    8 Kurdish_Jewish 10.95
    9 Jordanian 11.32
    10 Iranian_Jewish 12.21
    11 Tunisian_Jewish 14.5
    12 Assyrian 15.12
    13 Bedouin 15.54
    14 Libyan_Jewish 15.76
    15 Sephardic_Jewish 17.39
    16 Algerian_Jewish 18.37
    17 Italian_Jewish 18.76
    18 Georgian_Jewish 19.2
    19 Yemenite_Jewish 20.47
    20 Egyptian 20.75

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 92.6% Lebanese_Christian + 7.4% Yemenite_Jewish @ 3.09
    2 96% Lebanese_Christian + 4% Saudi @ 3.34
    3 85.5% Lebanese_Christian + 14.5% Lebanese_Druze @ 3.38
    4 91.7% Lebanese_Christian + 8.3% Palestinian @ 3.4
    5 99.4% Lebanese_Christian + 0.6% Dai @ 3.42
    6 99.4% Lebanese_Christian + 0.6% Vietnamese @ 3.42
    7 99.4% Lebanese_Christian + 0.6% She @ 3.42
    8 99.4% Lebanese_Christian + 0.6% Lahu @ 3.43
    9 99.4% Lebanese_Christian + 0.6% Miaozu @ 3.43
    10 99.4% Lebanese_Christian + 0.6% Cambodian @ 3.43
    11 99.4% Lebanese_Christian + 0.6% Tujia @ 3.43
    12 99.4% Lebanese_Christian + 0.6% Malay @ 3.43
    13 99.5% Lebanese_Christian + 0.5% Yizu @ 3.44
    14 99.5% Lebanese_Christian + 0.5% Naxi @ 3.44
    15 99.4% Lebanese_Christian + 0.6% Tibeto-Burman_Burmese @ 3.45
    16 99.5% Lebanese_Christian + 0.5% Japanese @ 3.45
    17 99.5% Lebanese_Christian + 0.5% Tu @ 3.46
    18 99.6% Lebanese_Christian + 0.4% Xibo @ 3.46
    19 99.6% Lebanese_Christian + 0.4% Hezhen @ 3.47
    20 92.9% Lebanese_Christian + 7.1% Samaritan @ 3.47
    Fascinating, the Y DNA the person is a male should be interesting too. I've never seen a Lebanese score Saudi on gedmatch. I think this person may have genuine Arabian ancestry.

    I got these for k15

    1 86.5% Lebanese_Christian + 13.5% Kurdish @ 3.05
    2 84.8% Lebanese_Christian + 15.2% Armenian @ 3.07
    3 92.9% Lebanese_Christian + 7.1% Balkar @ 3.13
    4 85.6% Lebanese_Christian + 14.4% Turkish @ 3.13
    5 86.9% Lebanese_Christian + 13.1% Azeri @ 3.13
    6 82.8% Lebanese_Christian + 17.2% Georgian_Jewish @ 3.13
    7 92.8% Lebanese_Christian + 7.2% Adygei @ 3.14
    8 92.9% Lebanese_Christian + 7.1% Lezgin @ 3.14
    9 93.1% Lebanese_Christian + 6.9% Ossetian @ 3.14
    10 93.1% Lebanese_Christian + 6.9% Abhkasian @ 3.15
    11 93% Lebanese_Christian + 7% Kabardin @ 3.16
    12 93.4% Lebanese_Christian + 6.6% Chechen @ 3.17
    13 92.6% Lebanese_Christian + 7.4% Georgian @ 3.19
    14 92.2% Lebanese_Christian + 7.8% Kumyk @ 3.22
    15 93.4% Lebanese_Christian + 6.6% Tabassaran @ 3.22
    16 78.3% Lebanese_Christian + 21.7% Assyrian @ 3.25
    17 88% Lebanese_Christian + 12% Iranian @ 3.26
    18 93.6% Lebanese_Christian + 6.4% North_Ossetian @ 3.27
    19 93.8% Lebanese_Christian + 6.2% Balochi @ 3.28
    20 95% Lebanese_Christian + 5% Kalash @ 3.29

    Also whats up with all of the East Asian percentages haha
    Last edited by Batroun; 12-27-2018 at 05:53 PM.

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  3. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Batroun View Post
    Fascinating, the Y DNA the person is a male should be interesting too. I've never seen a Lebanese score Saudi on gedmatch. I think this person may have genuine Arabian ancestry.

    I got these for k15

    1 86.5% Lebanese_Christian + 13.5% Kurdish @ 3.05
    2 84.8% Lebanese_Christian + 15.2% Armenian @ 3.07
    3 92.9% Lebanese_Christian + 7.1% Balkar @ 3.13
    4 85.6% Lebanese_Christian + 14.4% Turkish @ 3.13
    5 86.9% Lebanese_Christian + 13.1% Azeri @ 3.13
    6 82.8% Lebanese_Christian + 17.2% Georgian_Jewish @ 3.13
    7 92.8% Lebanese_Christian + 7.2% Adygei @ 3.14
    8 92.9% Lebanese_Christian + 7.1% Lezgin @ 3.14
    9 93.1% Lebanese_Christian + 6.9% Ossetian @ 3.14
    10 93.1% Lebanese_Christian + 6.9% Abhkasian @ 3.15
    11 93% Lebanese_Christian + 7% Kabardin @ 3.16
    12 93.4% Lebanese_Christian + 6.6% Chechen @ 3.17
    13 92.6% Lebanese_Christian + 7.4% Georgian @ 3.19
    14 92.2% Lebanese_Christian + 7.8% Kumyk @ 3.22
    15 93.4% Lebanese_Christian + 6.6% Tabassaran @ 3.22
    16 78.3% Lebanese_Christian + 21.7% Assyrian @ 3.25
    17 88% Lebanese_Christian + 12% Iranian @ 3.26
    18 93.6% Lebanese_Christian + 6.4% North_Ossetian @ 3.27
    19 93.8% Lebanese_Christian + 6.2% Balochi @ 3.28
    20 95% Lebanese_Christian + 5% Kalash @ 3.29

    Also whats up with all of the East Asian percentages haha
    Yes, it seems like they have a small percent of Southeast Asian which is rare in Lebanese (might just be noise?) while South Asian at 1 or 2% would be normal. Thats probably why they get all those populations.

    Haven't seen Lebanese score Saudi either, so that may be saying something... but I am not sure if Ghassinid ancestry could be detected for everyone especially if it's been established for so long and spread around the community.
    78.1% Lebanese (Lebanon) + 21.9% Kosovar (Kosovo) @ 3.3

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  5. #63
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    Using Y-DNA, it's usually Lebanese

  6. #64
    Pierre Zalloua and his team in some papers suggests that when Middle eastern males migrated into North Africa, they left their female companions behind ..
    In the paper "Recent Historical Migrations Have Shaped the Gene Pool of Arabs and Berbers in North Africa " ..They reported that Comparison of inferred ancestry proportions between the autosomes and X chromosome in Cluster M is indicative of sex-biased admixture with an overabundance of males with Middle Eastern(Syrian-like) ancestry and females with sub-Saharan African (Yoruba-like) ancestry.التقاط.PNG
    Last edited by dany198124; 01-06-2019 at 09:08 PM.

  7. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronHorse View Post
    BedouinA is not necesserily Levantine admixed, there are people in Arabia who can be modeled as BedouinA and have no ancestry to Levantine countries, I posted this on the Palestinian thread: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post523241

    me for example, I have no Levantine ancestry, I'm closer to Levantines and Egyptians than to the Saudi or BedouinB samples:

    Bedouin here is BedouinA, dodecad v3.

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Bedouin (HGDP) 3.24
    2 Egyptans (Behar) 12.91
    3 Jordanians_19 (Behar) 15.24
    4 Yemenese (Behar) 17.56
    5 Syrians (Behar) 17.67
    6 Egypt (Henn) 18.1
    7 Palestinian (HGDP) 18.71
    8 Lebanese (Behar) 20.8
    9 Samaritians (Behar) 22.29
    10 Libya (Henn) 23.09
    11 Georgia_Jews (Behar) 25.38
    12 Iraq_Jews (Behar) 27.01
    13 Iranian_Jews (Behar) 27.37
    14 Druze (HGDP) 28.49
    15 Uzbekistan_Jews (Behar) 28.63
    16 Yemen_Jews (Behar) 29.26
    17 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 29.68
    18 Azerbaijan_Jews (Behar) 30.86
    19 Saudis (Behar) 31.49
    20 Kurd (Xing) 32.31

    and MDLP K16, which is useful for having both BedouinB and Palestinian:

    83% Palestinian (Israel) + 17% BedouinB (Negev) @ 3.66
    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    Yep, I've mentioned it myself in my latest post:



    Basically, the biggest difference between Levantines and Arabs (other than minor Steppe admixture in the former and elevated SSA admixture in the latter) is the much lower Iran_ChL admixture in Arabs than in Levantines. Some Arab populations seem to have gotten more Iran_ChL and thus are closer to Levantines, despite not having any substantial recent (as in - the last few millennia) Levantine ancestry.

    However, considering the geographical proximity between the Southern Levant and Arabia (really the main geographical barrier separating them is the Arabian desert), one cannot but wonder if there wasn't always some sort of diffusion between the South Levant and more northern Arab populations. For example, I'll be shocked if ancient Nabbatean samples, should they be discovered, won't show much more affinity to BA Levant than modern day Yemenites.

    Using the models I've shown above, it seems like the Northern Levant got almost no Arab admixture, while North Africa seem to have gotten more of the Levant-like Arab admixture (similar to BedouinA) than to the less-Levant-like BedouinB.
    Could the differences between BedouinA and BedouinB correlate with the alleged distinction between Adnanite and Qahtanite Arabs?

  8. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronHorse View Post
    BedouinA is not necesserily Levantine admixed, there are people in Arabia who can be modeled as BedouinA and have no ancestry to Levantine countries, I posted this on the Palestinian thread: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post523241

    me for example, I have no Levantine ancestry, I'm closer to Levantines and Egyptians than to the Saudi or BedouinB samples:

    Bedouin here is BedouinA, dodecad v3.

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Bedouin (HGDP) 3.24
    2 Egyptans (Behar) 12.91
    3 Jordanians_19 (Behar) 15.24
    4 Yemenese (Behar) 17.56
    5 Syrians (Behar) 17.67
    6 Egypt (Henn) 18.1
    7 Palestinian (HGDP) 18.71
    8 Lebanese (Behar) 20.8
    9 Samaritians (Behar) 22.29
    10 Libya (Henn) 23.09
    11 Georgia_Jews (Behar) 25.38
    12 Iraq_Jews (Behar) 27.01
    13 Iranian_Jews (Behar) 27.37
    14 Druze (HGDP) 28.49
    15 Uzbekistan_Jews (Behar) 28.63
    16 Yemen_Jews (Behar) 29.26
    17 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 29.68
    18 Azerbaijan_Jews (Behar) 30.86
    19 Saudis (Behar) 31.49
    20 Kurd (Xing) 32.31

    and MDLP K16, which is useful for having both BedouinB and Palestinian:

    83% Palestinian (Israel) + 17% BedouinB (Negev) @ 3.66
    What about Morrocans?
    Lot of Moroccans on Facebook who Score 100% North African on FTDNA.
    Some are obsessed about being “pure Berber” and are convinced this means they have no Subsaharan Or Arabian islamic era Admixture.
    What does Gedmatch tell us when Moroccan kits are analyzed further regarding Subsaharan and Arabian Admixture?

  9. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Claudio View Post
    What about Morrocans?
    Lot of Moroccans on Facebook who Score 100% North African on FTDNA.
    Some are obsessed about being “pure Berber” and are convinced this means they have no Subsaharan Or Arabian islamic era Admixture.
    What does Gedmatch tell us when Moroccan kits are analyzed further regarding Subsaharan and Arabian Admixture?
    I don't know about GEDmatch but this is what they look like in the Global 25 with a very basic datasheet of Mozabite, Saudi, Yoruba and Iberia BA. It happened to achieve a very low distance and looks good.

    Code:
    [1] "distance%=0.8899"
    
             Moroccan
    
    Mozabite,82.8
    Saudi,11.6
    Yoruba,5.6

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  11. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by LTG View Post
    I don't know about GEDmatch but this is what they look like in the Global 25 with a very basic datasheet of Mozabite, Saudi, Yoruba and Iberia BA. It happened to achieve a very low distance and looks good.

    Code:
    [1] "distance%=0.8899"
    
             Moroccan
    
    Mozabite,82.8
    Saudi,11.6
    Yoruba,5.6
    Thanks.

    How does that compare to Tunisians? and Algerians?

  12. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Claudio View Post
    Thanks.

    How does that compare to Tunisians? and Algerians?
    I added Dinka into the sheet just to cover all bases.

    Code:
    [1] "distance%=0.8874"
    
             Moroccan
    
    Mozabite,83.2
    Saudi,11.2
    Yoruba,4
    Dinka,1.6
    
    [1] "distance%=1.1463"
    
             Algerian
    
    Mozabite,82
    Saudi,8.2
    Iberia_BA,6.6
    Yoruba,1.8
    Dinka,1.4
    
    [1] "distance%=1.237"
    
             Tunisian
    
    Mozabite,69.8
    Saudi,21
    Iberia_BA,5.8
    Yoruba,2
    Dinka,1.4
    
    Adding Levant_BA_North as a stand in for Phoenicians.
    
    [1] "distance%=1.0181"
    
             Tunisian
    
    Mozabite,71.4
    Saudi,12.6
    Levant_BA_North,8.8
    Iberia_BA,3.8
    Dinka,2.4
    Yoruba,1
    I must admit I am quite surprised at how low these Sub-Saharan scores are. I was always under the impression that North African groups derived around 10-20% of their ancestry from a Sub-Saharan source, it looks like I either massively overestimated that ancestry or it will require a different type of analysis to properly quantify.
    Last edited by LTG; 02-12-2019 at 11:18 PM.

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  14. #70
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    How much do Mozabites have though?

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