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Thread: Who have more genuine "Arab" ancestry -- Lebanese, or Tunisians/Algerians?

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronHorse View Post
    How can BedouinB be modeled anyway? or Saudis.
    What is shocking to me is I had Erikl86 model Sicilians/Maltese, and while they are of course much less similar overall to Arabians autosomally than Lebanese are, because Canaanites and Arabs are more closely related than Greeks/Italics are to Arabs, they even needed Bedouin to be modeled while Lebanese do not.

    So it would make one wonder how Lebanese even became Arabized at all without absorbing any Arabian admixture, UNLESS we are to believe some of it is getting sucked into the similar Canaanite cluster.

    Frankly, I am not surprised that North Africans have more actual Arab ancestry than Lebanese.

    Can someone model Moroccans? I suspect of all North Africans, they have the least Arab admixture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post

    So it would make one wonder how Lebanese even became Arabized at all without absorbing any Arabian admixture
    And I've answered you in a PM, the following:

    IMO, the fact that it remained largely non-Muslim until the last few centuries.

    Back in the early to mid 1800s, about 80% of the population in where the Mount Lebanon Mutasarrifate, which covers ~50% of what is now Lebanon but was also the most populous region at the time, used to be Christian, the remaining were Druze and Muslims (borders in black dashed line):



    Then during WW1 there was a famine in that Mustasarrifate, that killed off 50% of the population - the vast majority of them were Christians.

    So up until fairly recently, the region was mostly Christian, and most Muslims in that region were most likely the result of Christian Lebanese marrying with Muslims or converting to Islam, rather than from actual Arabs that settled and converted Lebanese Christians back in the early stages of Islam.

    I think largely, non-Muslim populations also didn't absorb much Arabic admixture - because practically all Arabs which appeared after Islam in those regions were Muslims, and the conversion of Muslims out of Islam is forbidden. However, Muslims are allowed to marry with non-Muslims. So the geneflow was only in one direction.

    Populations that the majority converted to Islam back in the early stages of Islam, also absorbed some degree of Arabic admixture.

    As for Arabization - that's not too surprising. Copts in Egypt abandoned Coptic as a spoken language, which was a non-Semitic language, around the 13th century. Western Aramaic, which is a Semitic language and thus is similar to Arabic, is still spoken in some remote Christian villages in the border between Syria and Lebanon, and until few centuries ago it was also spoken in other villages in Lebanon and Syria. However, most Aramaic speaking Christians under Islam switched to Arabic because it became the lingua franca of the Muslim Middle East.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    And I've answered you in a PM, the following:

    IMO, the fact that it remained largely non-Muslim until the last few centuries.

    Back in the early to mid 1800s, about 80% of the population in where the Mount Lebanon Mutasarrifate, which covers ~50% of what is now Lebanon but was also the most populous region at the time, used to be Christian, the remaining were Druze and Muslims (borders in black dashed line):



    Then during WW1 there was a famine in that Mustasarrifate, that killed off 50% of the population - the vast majority of them were Christians.

    So up until fairly recently, the region was mostly Christian, and most Muslims in that region were most likely the result of Christian Lebanese marrying with Muslims or converting to Islam, rather than from actual Arabs that settled and converted Lebanese Christians back in the early stages of Islam.

    I think largely, non-Muslim populations also didn't absorb much Arabic admixture - because practically all Arabs which appeared after Islam in those regions were Muslims, and the conversion of Muslims out of Islam is forbidden. However, Muslims are allowed to marry with non-Muslims. So the geneflow was only in one direction.

    Populations that the majority converted to Islam back in the early stages of Islam, also absorbed some degree of Arabic admixture.

    As for Arabization - that's not too surprising. Copts in Egypt abandoned Coptic as a spoken language, which was a non-Semitic language, around the 13th century. Western Aramaic, which is a Semitic language and thus is similar to Arabic, is still spoken in some remote Christian villages in the border between Syria and Lebanon, and until few centuries ago it was also spoken in other villages in Lebanon and Syria. However, most Aramaic speaking Christians under Islam switched to Arabic because it became the lingua franca of the Muslim Middle East.
    This all makes perfect sense -- so maybe Lebanese people are onto something when they say they're "not Arabs" or, at least, not Arabs beyond being Arabic speaking and technically part of the Arab world with some cultural influences thereof. Phoenician-centric identity has long been mocked by other Arabs and even by some Muslim Lebanese who do prefer to think of themselves as Arabs no different from any other, but it has truth behind it.

    And I guess the reasons Sicilians/Maltese have more is that they were converted to Islam by a mixture of Arabs and Berbers, and then forcibly converted back to Christianity under the Crusades, a process which apparently did not happen in Lebanon.

    Could you model Moroccans? I would imagine them having almost no Arabian input, or certainly less than Tunisians have, if not also less than what Algerians have. Also try Syrians?

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    How much FGC12 (dominant Arabian J1 branch) among Lebanese people? almost all of it is under P58, but I have seen this (rare?) case https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-CTS1460*/
    Last edited by Moe12; 12-12-2018 at 03:19 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    Could you model Moroccans? I would imagine them having almost no Arabian input, or certainly less than Tunisians have, if not also less than what Algerians have. Also try Syrians?
    I can't model them as well as I could Algerians and Tunisians, I think we need another Berber population (perhaps Atlas related) to do that. However, the BedouinA is roughly half than that in Algerian:

    Code:
    [1] "distance%=2.7936"
    
             Moroccan
    
    Mozabite,69
    Saharawi,26.2
    BedouinA,4.8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    I can't model them as well as I could Algerians and Tunisians, I think we need another Berber population (perhaps Atlas related) to do that. However, the BedouinA is roughly half than that in Algerian:

    Code:
    [1] "distance%=2.7936"
    
             Moroccan
    
    Mozabite,69
    Saharawi,26.2
    BedouinA,4.8
    Maltese and Trapanese are as Arab as Moroccans. Interesting.

    Saharawi being needed represents Moroccans having higher SSA than other North Africans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post

    Saharawi being needed represents Moroccans having higher SSA than other North Africans.
    I actually didn't choose them because of that, it's that they are native to Western Morocco. Actually, I think we need Riffian Berbers or some other Berber groups to better model Moroccans.
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  12. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    I actually didn't choose them because of that, it's that they are native to Western Morocco. Actually, I think we need Riffian Berbers or some other Berber groups to better model Moroccans.
    It looks like Arabian ancestry is almost perfectly clinal across North Africa. I wonder how much Sudanese and Mauritanians score.

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    The earliest genomes that we have from the Levant after the Neolithic and Chalcolithic period are the Levant_BA_South samples. Levant_BA_South itself was an Arab-like population and appears to be quite close to modern day peoples from Yemen and Saudi Arabia. The later genomes represented in Levant_BA_North show a lot of admixture occurred with populations to both the north and east over time, bringing significant Barcin_N and Iran_ChL-related ancestries respectively. If we consider these three points:

    1. Lebanese can be modelled as Levant_BA_North with some 7% Yamnaya_Samara
    2. Levant_BA_North can be modelled as 60% Levant_BA_South, 25% Iran_ChL and a further 15% Barcin_N
    3. Levant_BA_South resembles modern day Arabs

    We can conclude that the base component of all modern day Lebanese, alongside other core Levantine groups, is Arab-like. Therefore migrations of Arabian peoples in recent times would only serve to bring more of the base component since they are not a foreign entity to the region in the strictest sense. It is understandably going to be quite difficult to quantify how much Arabian is recent and how much is simply the original Levant strand before the invasions and mixing from the north and east because of this. The migrations that brought Iranian and Anatolian-related components are the only reason Lebanese, Samaritans and such are not clustering much closer to their southern cousins in the Arabian Peninsula. It will be more informative to look at the Y-DNA of the Lebanese for this reason.
    Last edited by LTG; 12-12-2018 at 11:08 PM.

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    Definitely Lebanese based on Y DNA

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