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Thread: Who have more genuine "Arab" ancestry -- Lebanese, or Tunisians/Algerians?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by LTG View Post
    The earliest genomes that we have from the Levant after the Neolithic and Chalcolithic period are the Levant_BA_South samples. Levant_BA_South itself was an Arab-like population and appears to be quite close to modern day peoples from Yemen and Saudi Arabia. The later genomes represented in Levant_BA_North show a lot of admixture occurred with populations to both the north and east over time, bringing significant Barcin_N and Iran_ChL-related ancestries respectively. If we consider these three points:

    1. Lebanese can be modelled as Levant_BA_North with some 7% Yamnaya_Samara
    2. Levant_BA_North can be modelled as 60% Levant_BA_South, 35% Iran_ChL and a further 15% Barcin_N
    3. Levant_BA_South resembles modern day Arabs

    We can conclude that the base component of all modern day Lebanese, alongside other core Levantine groups, is Arab-like. Therefore migrations of Arabian peoples in recent times would only serve to bring more of the base component since they are not a foreign entity to the region in the strictest sense. It is understandably going to be quite difficult to quantify how much Arabian is recent and how much is simply the original Levant strand before the invasions and mixing from the north and east because of this. The migrations that brought Iranian and Anatolian-related components are the only reason Lebanese, Samaritans and such are not clustering much closer to their southern cousins in the Arabian Peninsula. It will be more informative to look at the Y-DNA of the Lebanese for this reason.
    Thanks for the post, I had the same thought, that's why I asked how can BedouinB or Saudi be modeled, it's simply Levant BA south.

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  3. #22
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    Why compare a tiny country (which is a failed French attempt at creating a Christian country out of a part of "Syria") to a whole region the size of western Europe? It makes more sense to compare the Maghreb vs the Mashreq ( Levant).

    In the Maghreb, an average by country doesn't work because there is some variation in each one.
    When using G25 with plink, you can see some Tunisians, Algerians and even some Moroccans and Saharawis slightly deviating from the main tight Mozabite cluster towards the Near East, usually towards Arabia but sometimes towards the Levant.
    Some Maghrebis deviate towards Europeans though, either from recent European ancestry or from earlier migrations : rural* Northern Moroccans are slightly shifted towards Europe but don't seem to have highly decreased Taforalt ancestry, so maybe we're seeing something similar to the Guanches?

    *I say rural because it's well established now that urban Moroccans in some cities (Fes, Tangiers etc) from old families have minor Spaniard ancestry, and sometimes Jewish ancestry.

    Libya wins hands down of course with a majority of people outside Tripolitania having significant Arabian ancestry, sometimes predominantly so.


    So it's overall similar to the Levant I guess, where mixing happened in some populations without necessarily spreading all over for various reasons (tribalism, religion etc). Religion because people tend to see majority Muslim areas as a monolith even though the history of the Maghreb is filled with complex interactions and changes in the Islamic sects that the populations have adhered to ( overwhelmingly malekite sunnite nowadays though).

    For clearer estimates, we obviously need more ancient DNA samples as it is harder to dissect things for populations that are somewhat closely related to begin with.
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  5. #23
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    It is interesting that Roman texts do not mention arabs except in reference to south nubia and the Axumite-Himyarite wars across the red sea, but
    Assyrian records show their heavy slaughtering ( today we call it genocide ) of many invading arabs during there time of power

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    Should the question be......when does a language create an ethnicity or does it never do .....

    did the peoples the Romans conquered become ethnic Romans because they learned latin ?

    same fro Arabs and even slavs

    maybe we can go really crazy and state anyone knowing English could be ethnically english !

    IMO, ethnicity and language do not merge well together to represent anything , same as religion and ethnicity or religion and language ............for clarity , they should be looked at separately from each other

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    Since the question of who is an Arab is very fluid, this raises a whole bunch of philosophical questions.

    But even if one is to ignore the linguistic and cultural aspects of who is an Arab, then there's an obvious cline from the BedouinA (which in the Levant itself are considered the most pristine Arabs) all the way to Yemenites, and the problematic issue that both Levantines and Arabs seem to share substantial Neolithic Levantine ancestry. In fact, modern Arabs seem to be most differentiated from modern Levantines in their much lower Iran_ChL admixture, which is Bronze Age Levantine is roughly 50/50, but in some pristine Arab populations it's as low as only ~10% Iran_ChL.

    As was already pointed out, the fact that J1, which is a hallmark Arab uniparental is also native to the Levant, it's going to be a uniparental headache as well. But uniparentals on themselves are not good indicators of admixture proportions, they just show evidence of ancestry from a certain population.

    So to answer this question, I will propose the following models:

    BedouinB
    Mozabite

    For Algerian and Tunisian:

    Code:
    [1] "distance%=1.7162"
    
             Algerian
    
    Mozabite,93.6
    BedouinB,6.4
    Code:
    [1] "distance%=1.8271"
    
             Tunisian
    
    Mozabite,81
    BedouinB,19
    And for Lebanese, I chose Christians, and I used the following populations. I resorted again to use BedouinB as a pristine Arabic population given that we don't have ancient Arabs to use, and given Bedouins own tribal code and low level of intermarriage, as well as the role they played with the spread of Islam. BedouinA would be less adequate as they seem to be quite Levantine shifted - perhaps even originate from some Arabized noamdic Levantine population, who knows. I actually resorted into doing something I don't like, which is mixing ancient and modern populations - but again, we don't have ancient Arabic samples yet.

    So these are the populations I've chosed:

    BedouinB
    Levant_BA_North
    Yamnaya_Samara (remember Lebanese should be differentiated from Bronze Age Levantines by having <10% Steppe-like admixture, according to Haber et al.)

    And here's the result:

    Code:
    [1] "distance%=1.9421"
    
             Lebanese_Christian
    
    Levant_BA_North,91.4
    Yamnaya_Samara,8.6
    Very similar to Haber et al. qpAdm model - but look how the BedouinB sample got kicked out. If I take out the Steppe-like component, this is what I'm left with:

    Code:
    [1] "distance%=3.1951"
    
             Lebanese_Christian
    
    Levant_BA_North,100
    Again, no BedouinB.

    Less but not least, I'll try to model Muslim Lebanese, to see how much Arabic ancestry they have:

    Code:
    [1] "distance%=2.2521"
    
             Lebanese_Muslim
    
    Levant_BA_North,86
    Yamnaya_Samara,14
    Strangely enough, they show up with way too much Steppe-like ancestry, but also the distance is higher than in the case of Christian Lebanese, so I guess there is something missing which skews up the model. I'll try to add some ancient East African ancestry, like Tanzania_Zanzibar_1400BP. It should be a very good model to use when trying to establish SSA admixture in modern Arabs for several reasons:
    1. It's dated to 1,400 years before present - just before the rise of Islam.
    2. It's from Zanzibar - THE place where SSA slaves were imported into the Middle East. In fact, the name itself - Zanzibar - is derived from the Arab term for SSA slaves - Zanj.

    So here goes:

    Code:
    [1] "distance%=1.9018"
    
             Lebanese_Muslim
    
    Levant_BA_North,84.8
    Yamnaya_Samara,13.8
    Tanzania_Zanzibar_1400BP,1.4
    Still elevated Steppe-like admixture compares to Christian Lebanese, which is interesting, but the distance is now lower and similar to the distances we've seen in all the other models (slightly less than 2%). The SSA ancestry also first what is usually estimated for Lebanese Muslims - less than 2%.

    However, in the mean time it seems that as opposed to the Algerians and Tunisians, BedouinB shows no appearance in both Christian or Muslim Lebanese.

    Last but not least, I'll try to also model Lebanese Druze, which is problematic by itself since they are a very endogenic population, but there are conflicting traditions of where they originate - some narrative claim they have Yemenite ancestry, others Anatolian ancestry - so should be interesting to see if they have any BedouinB ancestry:

    Code:
    [1] "distance%=1.9586"
    
             Lebanese_Druze
    
    Levant_BA_North,87.6
    Yamnaya_Samara,12.4
    Seem to also have slightly elevated Steppe-like ancestry compared to the Christian samples, but still - no appearance of the BedouinB sample.

    Just for the heck of it, I'll use the BedouinA instead of B, to see if anything changes. I'll try just the Christian Lebanese sample:

    Code:
    [1] "distance%=1.9421"
    
             Lebanese_Christian
    
    Levant_BA_North,91.4
    Yamnaya_Samara,8.6
    Nothing, despite the fact that BedouinA sample is much closer than BedouinB is in single distance from Lebanese.

    Let's also try to model Algerian with it (Tunisian might be biased because it might have also Punic ancestry which might cause Levant-shifted BedouinA sample to show up in higher proportions):

    Code:
    [1] "distance%=1.4106"
    
             Algerian
    
    Mozabite,89.6
    BedouinA,10.4
    Even higher than BedouinB, and the distance is better, which can point out to two possibilities, IMO:
    1. Algerians also have some Punic ancestry.
    2. Arabs arrived to North Africa after mixing with Levantines slightly - so they haven't arrived as totally pristine Arabs.

    I think in this case, option 2 plays much more plausible part - that is, that Arab tribes mixed with Levantines which can be best represented via BedouinA, are the type of Arabs which settled in North Africa. This also fits nicely with the path Islam spread into North Africa (via the Levant):




    So to summarize this and to answer Sikeliot's question, it seems like Algerians and Tunisians might have mixed more and perhaps were even settled by more Arab tribes than Lebanese and Lebanon.
    These models look extremely simplified. There's no way a pure Yamnaya-like population was present in the Levant during the Bronze Age.

    I bet Levantines, especially the Muslims have numerous amounts of shifts that are difficult to find using the current spreadsheet David has. But the clearest shift for both the Druze and the Lebanese Muslims is towards Caucasus/Iran.

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  9. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helves View Post
    These models look extremely simplified. There's no way a pure Yamnaya-like population was present in the Levant during the Bronze Age.

    I bet Levantines, especially the Muslims have numerous amounts of shifts that are difficult to find using the current spreadsheet David has. But the clearest shift for both the Druze and the Lebanese Muslims is towards Caucasus/Iran.
    There's also clear Levant Bronze age shift in northern West Asia. High EM34 in Kurds, EM34 in late Bronze age Armenians while early BA Armenians were less Semitic - shifted. I bet this has alot to do with expasions of early Semitic tribes like Amorrites and Akkadians.

    The minor Yamnaya in Lebanese is linked to the general northern shifted of Levantines compared to Arabians. Because even Arabians are kinda diverse some are more like Levant BA South even more Natufian-shifted than it, some are shifted towards Levant BA North.

    I think the history of the Middle East / MENA is just that nobody is pure anything, everybody's mixed.

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  11. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Govan View Post
    There's also clear Levant Bronze age shift in northern West Asia. High EM34 in Kurds, EM34 in late Bronze age Armenians while early BA Armenians were less Semitic - shifted. I bet this has alot to do with expasions of early Semitic tribes like Amorrites and Akkadians.

    The minor Yamnaya in Lebanese is linked to the general northern shifted of Levantines compared to Arabians. Because even Arabians are kinda diverse some are more like Levant BA South even more Natufian-shifted than it, some are shifted towards Levant BA North.

    I think the history of the Middle East / MENA is just that nobody is pure anything, everybody's mixed.
    Indeed, I mentioned this some time ago but Kurds and Iranians require a more Levantine-like or SW Asian source when modelled simply as Iran_Chl + Sintastha + BMAC. Not sure if this is from the Islamic expansion, ie Arabian or further back as you mentioned.
    I guess Mesopotamian aDNA will give us the answer.

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  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helves View Post
    Indeed, I mentioned this some time ago but Kurds and Iranians require a more Levantine-like or SW Asian source when modelled simply as Iran_Chl + Sintastha + BMAC. Not sure if this is from the Islamic expansion, ie Arabian or further back as you mentioned.
    I guess Mesopotamian aDNA will give us the answer.
    I've been running a few models since seeing this comment - This is something several of us in other parts of the forum have been contemplating and discussing intermittently.

    In short, you're right. I think I have the answer regarding the source.

    Please see an upcoming thread in this section (I'll rep point you when it's posted and will edit this post).

    [Edit]: Here it is: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....700#post526700

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    I consider this topic to be one of those big question issues that we'd all like to know the answer to, but considering how similar the groups in question are to each other already, I agree with LTG that it will not be solved easily.

    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    However, considering the geographical proximity between the Southern Levant and Arabia (really the main geographical barrier separating them is the Arabian desert), one cannot but wonder if there wasn't always some sort of diffusion between the South Levant and more northern Arab populations. For example, I'll be shocked if ancient Nabbatean samples, should they be discovered, won't show much more affinity to BA Levant than modern day Yemenites.
    What do you think of the ancient Jewish traditions regarding the genesis of Arabians? The identity of many groups in the Table of Nations is ambiguous, but some aren't particularly controversial. It seems likely that the biblical Cushites are representative of populations on both sides of the Red Sea, and might represent South Semitic-speaking peoples in general. All other Arabians are presumed by the texts to be Hebrews (descendants of Eber), either through Joktan or Ishmael. The Moabites and Edomites were also presumably absorbed by Arabians later on. Obviously these genealogies don't constitute rigorous ethnography, but considering their eerie recognition of a connection between Greeks, Medes, Anatolians, and other "sons of Japheth" (how could they possibly have known about IE that early?!), maybe there's something to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    It looks like Arabian ancestry is almost perfectly clinal across North Africa. I wonder how much Sudanese and Mauritanians score.
    That Northeast African paper that included the Sudanese posited that their West Eurasian admixture is recent and mediated by Arabs. I find this to be a little unconvincing, to be honest. I accept Arabian admixture, but I'm not persuaded that Nubians didn't already have significant West Eurasian ancestry prior to the region's Arabization.
    Ελευθερία ή θάνατος.

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  17. #30
    @Mich: They probably looked at their neighbors, recognized their languages have tons of similarities; recognized tons of similarities in customs, mannerisms, traditions, etc.; and we're able to deduce that they most likely had a genetic kinship with the neighbors who bore way too much resemblance for there to not be a link worth observing. And perhaps this type of deduction was applied to outside groups as well. Though that's just one explanation. Could be that these folks had traditions about their origins that lined up with one another too. But the former explanation seems very likely I guess.
    Last edited by notasuckah; 12-13-2018 at 06:31 AM.

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