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Thread: Who have more genuine "Arab" ancestry -- Lebanese, or Tunisians/Algerians?

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronHorse View Post
    Is there any theoretical possibility that a known historical migration of people to some already inhabited location would not result in admixture?

    medieval Arabs .. can you imagine a scenario where the resultant population would not have any Arab admixture? how would that happen?
    No just whether the Admixture was minor? or major?

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Claudio View Post
    I take it E-m81 peaks in South Morocco?
    From my research I gather the expansion of E-m81 - E-M183 expansion and Subclades is throughfirst Numidian North African Berbers,then as far as European spread first through Berbers who joined Phoenicians,late Carthaginians,later Roman era Punics and lastly spread through Berbers who converted to Islam and spread E-M81.
    I have come across quite a few Muslim Arabs online who are of an alternative opinion and convinced E-m81 has a recent middle eastern origin not North African?
    Even to the point where I have seen actual scientific papers coming out of the Middle East claiming a more recent Middle East Origin? Something about where E-m81 separates from L19 or something or other?? Seemed a bit far fetched and smelt of Pan Arabism and I wasn’t convinced lol but who knows? what’s your opinion?
    In Morocco as a country yes but when it comes to actual communities, many populations outside Morocco are high in E-M81, with some Tunisian populations at 100%.

    What is sure about Southern Moroccans, is that they don't seem to need anything else than IAM, Barcin_N and West African to get modeled very decently. If the Berber languages expansions are linked to a distinct ancestral population, then Southern Moroccans don't have much if any Proto-Berber/Afro-Asiatic ancestry (this is my own "wild" idea).

    As for the young TMRCA of almost all modern E-M81 carriers, while it looks very recent I do not think it is linked to Iron Age Numidian Kingdoms but to the Late Bronze Age or early Phoenician settlements.

    The middle Eastern origin of E-M183 is unlikely in my humble opinion. The simplest scenario is always preferred, here E-M81 dates back to the early Neolithic Maghreb, with one branch (E-M183) reexpanding very recently.
    That being said, if there are actual ancient sample supporting a Levantine origin, I'd have nothing against it.

    Quote Originally Posted by IronHorse View Post
    Is there any theoretical possibility that a known historical migration of people to some already inhabited location would not result in admixture?

    medieval Arabs .. can you imagine a scenario where the resultant population would not have any Arab admixture? how would that happen?
    I think there WAS admixture, otherwise a Arabian-derived y-dna haplogroup (J1-P58) wouldn't be the second haplogroup of the Maghreb overall (even in berberophones, albeit less than arabophones).
    However I think for most Maghrebi populations, Arabian ancestry is indirect and got diluted over time.

    If we use the data we have, the populations with significant Arabian ancestry seem to be Libyans, some Southern Tunisians and some "Sahel" Tunisians as well as steppes peri-Saharan Algerians with real Arab genealogical affiliations.
    The semi-arid environment, nomadism and low densities might have helped better preserve the Arabian genepool in these regions (together with the usual strong tribalism).
    Paternal Y-DNA haplogroup: E-M35>E-Z827>L19>M81>M183
    Maternal [grandfather] Y-DNA: E-M35>E-Z827>L19>M81>M183>PF2477>PF2546
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    13910: TT (rs4988235 AA)
    22018: AA (rs182549 TT)

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  4. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronHorse View Post
    Is there any theoretical possibility that a known historical migration of people to some already inhabited location would not result in admixture?

    medieval Arabs .. can you imagine a scenario where the resultant population would not have any Arab admixture? how would that happen?
    Because unlike Proto-Slavs who were good farmers living in good climate, Arabs are desertic predominantly nomadic folk with low population density and thus far less likely to have a huge genetic impact on populations. Slavs contributed ancestry to 1/3 of Europe.

    We can agree that the areas where Arabians had their greatest impact were the desertic parts of Mesopotamia (everything south of Mosul) and the SW parts of the Levant that is to say Palestine and SW Syria. This is where Arabians had settled with the Ummayads and Damascus was their capital.

    By the way, what does this say about Palestinian demographic at the onset of the Islamic conquest? Probably that Palestine was the least peopled part of the Levant, and had known more damages from the Roma-Jewish revolts than Lebanon or parts of Syria.
    Last edited by Govan; 02-27-2019 at 05:26 PM.

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  6. #84
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    I guess it bears mentioning that these marginal desert areas were often populated by Arabians/Arabs in the first place, even before the advent of Islam. I wonder how genetically different the newcomers would have been from, say, the Nabataeans.
    Ελευθερία ή θάνατος.

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  8. #85
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    I guess Arab-affiliated tribes like Nabateans (who were already Christian Aramaic speaking) and other more guenine Arab tribes took part of the Islamic conquest. It's well known that Arabians, including Muhammad's family were involved in tradings and transhumance activies in between Syria, Mesopotamia and Arabia. Arabian settlements in Iraq /Mesopotamia was also continiuous in time, it never stopped and many Iraqi Arabs descend from tribes that came out of Arabia as late as the 19th century (Banu Shammar for example).

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  10. #86
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    This is tangentially-related, but I started a thread on Palestinian Christian y-dna that includes by far the largest sample size (n=89) and highest resolution vs anything published thus far: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....23andme-Survey

    The y-dna lines seem most derived from 4 almost equal sources: Natufians/Levant_N (E1b1b1), Anatolian farmers (G2a2b), Copper Age Halaf/Mesopotamia (G1, G1a2b), and basal types of J1/J1a that possibly arrived with Kura-Araxes from the north.

    I have heard Bethlehem was settled by some Ghassanid Arabs from the east - Ghassanids would presumably be more "Saudi-like" autosomally. Perhaps they are responsible for the J-P58, which deeper y tests have apparently revealed is slightly different than the "Kohanim" P58...
    Last edited by K33; 02-27-2019 at 07:33 PM.

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