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Thread: Malayalam Corner മലയാളം മൂല

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Observer View Post
    @ Anthroin and Client or anyone with access to linguistics studies on this specific topic.

    Does the word for Horse in Dravidian languages and Indo-Aryan languages have independent origin or common origin? I'm curious about horse loan words in the region, It's odd that they don't appear to be loan from Indo-European (?).

    Sanskrit (अश्व, Asva) - Horse

    Malayalam (കുതിര, Kuthira) - Horse

    Kannada (ಕುದುರೆ, Kudure) - Horse

    Tamil (குதிரை, Kutirai) - Horse

    Niraj Rai few months ago tweeted "Genetic evidence of Horses in mature Harappan period. The findings will be published soon." I'm wondering if early presence of horses in IVC could suggest some sort of trade with pre-IE people who had them, or maybe upper Indus native breeds (Spiti horse or Zaniskari ) related to Tibetian breed?
    Telugu - Gurram
    Satham/Sadam is also from old Prachi/Desi means horse used during Iron age
    Y: H-M69 -> H-M82 -> SK1225 -> H-Z5888 -> H-Z5890 -> H-CTS8144 [CTS8144/PF1741/M5498] -> Z34531 (H1a1a4b3b1a8~)
    mtDNA: U2a1a
    extras 309.1C 315.1C 522.1A 522.2 CG8572A G8860A T11368C T16093a T16154C C16519T C195T

    G25 Ancients Dist 0.99 Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3:S8728.E1.L1 65.2 Saidu_Sharif_IA_o:S7722.E1.L1 17.8 Udegram_IA:I1985 7.8 Jordanian:S_Jordanian-1 4.4 Barikot_IA:I6545 2.2 Scotland_N:I26602 Narva_Lithuania: Donkalnis6

    Lactose persistance rs3213871 rs4988243

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  3. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    We have ghora, ghotak, gur, khur, etc.
    The famous Persian emperor Bahram Gor comes to mind.
    "The Yeniseian kut and Audi kuto, kotu, are the closest foreign
    terms to the Dravirian kud, kuda which is probably more ancient
    in the Caucaso-Indian province in both surd and sonant forms
    (Afghan-Bengali ghoda, god, ghotak, ghota) than the Cau-
    caso-Hindi gour, ghora &c., although all are variations of the same
    Scytbic vocable, of which the primary form is kus cow and the
    root ku (Chinese, Scythico-Iranian &c. see Cow 9). "
    https://archive.org/download/in.erne...journal-of.pdf

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  5. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Observer View Post
    @ Anthroin and Client or anyone with access to linguistics studies on this specific topic.

    Does the word for Horse in Dravidian languages and Indo-Aryan languages have independent origin or common origin? I'm curious about horse loan words in the region, It's odd that they don't appear to be loan from Indo-European (?).

    Sanskrit (अश्व, Asva) - Horse

    Malayalam (കുതിര, Kuthira) - Horse

    Kannada (ಕುದುರೆ, Kudure) - Horse

    Tamil (குதிரை, Kutirai) - Horse

    Niraj Rai few months ago tweeted "Genetic evidence of Horses in mature Harappan period. The findings will be published soon." I'm wondering if early presence of horses in IVC could suggest some sort of trade with pre-IE people who had them, or maybe upper Indus native breeds (Spiti horse or Zaniskari ) related to Tibetian breed?
    Not just the user client above, but Late Prof. Bh. Krishnamurti also derived the word *kut-i-ray [kudiray] from the root *kut- with the meaning 'to leap' (though he says in the same sentence as this that the etymologies associated with the Dravidian 'horse' words are doubtful). This word is also limited to the South Dravidian-I subfamily and this can be seen in the illustrations you have given showing Tamil, Malayalam and Kannada all of which belong to that subgroup. There is a word kudira in Telugu also but strictly confined to dictionaries and I think no fluent Telugu speaker is familiar with that word. I think that may be some ancient loanword in Telugu from Tamil/Kannada. The native old word still in widespread use for 'horse' in Telugu is gurramu (--> Modern Telugu gurraM). In addition to Telugu, other South Dravidian-II languages of Gondi and Konda and all the Central Dravidian languages of Kolami, Naiki and Parji inherited the Telugu-cognate from an older stage or through areal diffusion.

    Now, though the A Dravidian Etymological Dictionary groups the South Dravidian-I *kut-i-ray forms and the South Dravidian-II and Central Dravidian *kurr- type words into two sub-groups within the same etymon in entries 1711(a) and 1711(b), Bh. Krishnamurti thought that the two sets do not seem to be phonologically related to each other (which they indeed don't unless some hitherto undiscovered sound change affecting South Dravidian-II and/or Central Dravidian is playing a role here).

    However there has always been this other, rather intriguing (and seemingly cognate) word, for 'horse' (of all things!) and in only Brahui and Tamil (of all the languages!) which is apparently Brahui hullI and Old Tamil ivuLi. The Etymological Dictionary groups these two together but I don't know if there is a consensus among linguists to agree with this. This is also usually the item brought up by scholars (like Michael Witzel) to argue that the ancient Dravidians knew of horse independently of Indo-Aryans (and in the case of Michael Witzel, that thus they may have been migrants to India after the Indus de-urbanisation too, just like Indo-Aryans).

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  7. #54
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    "It did seem like on oversimplification of sorts and now that you mention the presence of certain archaisms in Malayalam, that are absent in even in old Tamil I am very confused as to what actually took place."

    The essay 'Malayalam in Dravidian' by S.V. Shanmugam describes the evolution of Malayalam the best, and perfectly explains how it both shares common innovations with Middle Tamil and has retained archaisms not present in literary Old Tamil.

    https://archive.org/details/in.ernet...19955/page/n23

    I've become more interested in Kerala after seeing my gedmatch results as a Jaffna Tamil. I have a lot of distant Keralite relatives going back to 8 generations ago (Mostly Nair and one Namboothri). I think I likely have a Nair soldier ancestor who migrated in the colonial period. I wonder if my R1a1 is from there.

    Most of the Mallus assimilated into the dominant Vellala caste. Our dialect is closer to Malayalam in accent and phonology than to Tamil Nadu Tamil. In order for that to have happened suggests a predominant migration from Kerala in the late medieval period. These Mallus likely assimilated into the Tamil milieu already existing there.

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  9. #55
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    There is also a tamil word for horse - puravi.

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