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Thread: New paper on ancient Italy with samples from North to South discussion!

  1. #201
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    Many of those Near Eastern populations might have been Greek-speaking themselves or at the very least culturally Hellenistic. So Anatolian Greeks and Hellenistic Anatolians. Also Levantine Greeks and Hellenistic Syrians (Aramaic-speakers) from places like Antioch. The interesting thing about Antioch is many of the Greek colonists there were of Macedonian descent and might have had a very Mycenaean-like profile before mixing into the local population. This might also have been the source for Greek admixture into the ancestral gene pool of Western Jews. It might also be what pulls the Alawites toward the Aegean. Really fascinating stuff.
    Ελευθερία ή θάνατος.

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  3. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granary View Post
    My point was that you cannot expect to get the genetic situation in southern Italy just by having urban Greeks, you need Near Eastern populations to in some considerable amount.
    I was referring to all of Italy in this regard though it applies more to the south, a bit less to the centre and even less to the north.

    However all of Italy was affected, to some extent, by Levantine admixture, and to a much smaller extent, by Germanic admixture (notably in the medieval nobility but also at lower social levels too).

    Even after the demise of the Western Roman Empire in the later 5th century CE, Levantine elements continued to flow into "Byzantine" Italy up to the middle 8th century and from there into the former Langobard areas of the country.
    Last edited by Cascio; 07-28-2020 at 10:36 AM.

  4. #203
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    TUR_Boncuklu_N GEO_CHG Levant_Natufian IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N UKR_Meso RUS_Sidelkino_HG ITA_Villabruna MAR_Taforalt
    Italic_averaged 73.0 4.6 0.0 0.0 22.0 0.0 0.4 0.0
    Italian_Bergamo 66.2 10.0 1.4 0.6 21.8 0.0 0.0 0.0
    Italian_Lombardy 65.8 11.0 2.6 0.0 13.6 7.0 0.0 0.0
    Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige 63.8 10.2 1.2 0.0 24.8 0.0 0.0 0.0
    Italian_Veneto 63.6 10.2 1.4 1.2 23.6 0.0 0.0 0.0
    Italian_Piedmont 62.4 12.0 3.8 2.0 16.8 3.0 0.0 0.0
    Italian_Umbria 62.2 12.8 5.8 4.8 5.6 8.8 0.0 0.0
    Italian_Tuscany 62.0 12.6 5.0 3.2 14.4 2.8 0.0 0.0
    Italian_Aosta_Valley 61.8 9.8 0.6 0.0 27.8 0.0 0.0 0.0
    Italian_Lazio 61.4 11.0 7.8 6.6 13.2 0.0 0.0 0.0
    Italian_Northeast 60.6 11.0 1.2 0.4 26.8 0.0 0.0 0.0
    Italian_Liguria 60.2 14.0 4.6 0.0 20.4 0.6 0.0 0.2
    AjejeBrazorf_scaled 60.0 12.8 11.6 8.2 3.8 3.6 0.0 0.0
    Swiss_Italian 60.0 12.2 4.4 2.4 19.8 1.2 0.0 0.0
    Italian_Molise 60.0 14.2 7.4 6.4 5.0 7.0 0.0 0.0
    Italian_Marche 59.8 14.2 7.6 3.6 10.2 4.6 0.0 0.0
    Italian_Apulia 59.4 14.8 9.6 6.4 3.2 6.6 0.0 0.0
    Italian_Abruzzo 59.0 13.6 8.8 6.8 5.6 6.2 0.0 0.0
    Italian_Basilicata 58.8 14.4 9.8 7.4 3.0 6.6 0.0 0.0
    Italian_Campania 58.6 13.2 11.0 8.6 1.4 7.2 0.0 0.0
    Italian_Calabria 58.0 14.4 11.6 8.6 0.0 7.4 0.0 0.0
    Sicilian_East 56.4 14.0 13.0 7.0 7.8 1.8 0.0 0.0
    Sicilian_West 54.8 10.4 13.4 8.4 13.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
    Maltese 53.8 11.2 15.4 8.4 2.0 8.2 0.0 1.0
    Italian_Jew 52.0 11.6 20.2 10.6 0.0 5.6 0.0 0.0
    Last edited by Ajeje Brazorf; 07-28-2020 at 11:18 AM.

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  6. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    Many of those Near Eastern populations might have been Greek-speaking themselves or at the very least culturally Hellenistic. So Anatolian Greeks and Hellenistic Anatolians. Also Levantine Greeks and Hellenistic Syrians (Aramaic-speakers) from places like Antioch. The interesting thing about Antioch is many of the Greek colonists there were of Macedonian descent and might have had a very Mycenaean-like profile before mixing into the local population. This might also have been the source for Greek admixture into the ancestral gene pool of Western Jews. It might also be what pulls the Alawites toward the Aegean. Really fascinating stuff.
    I am wondering if this extra middle east input among Greeks and Italians arrived during IA period but it increased during Hellenistic and Roman Ages.
    Target: Ioannis_scaled
    Distance: 1.4987% / 0.01498655
    51.8 TUR_Ikiztepe_LC
    24.6 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
    14.8 Levant_Baqah_BA
    5.4 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
    3.4 RUS_Catacomb

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  8. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajeje Brazorf View Post
    TUR_Boncuklu_N UKR_Meso GEO_CHG Levant_Natufian IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N RUS_Sidelkino_HG MAR_Taforalt ITA_Villabruna
    Italic_averaged 72.8 21.8 4.8 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.6
    Italian_Bergamo 66.2 21.8 10.0 1.4 0.6 0.0 0.0 0.0
    Italian_Lombardy 65.6 14.0 11.2 2.6 0.0 6.6 0.0 0.0
    Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige 63.8 24.8 10.2 1.2 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
    Italian_Veneto 63.6 23.6 10.2 1.4 1.2 0.0 0.0 0.0
    Italian_Piedmont 62.4 16.8 12.0 3.8 2.0 3.0 0.0 0.0
    Italian_Umbria 62.2 5.6 12.8 5.8 4.8 8.8 0.0 0.0
    Italian_Tuscany 62.0 14.4 12.6 5.0 3.2 2.8 0.0 0.0
    Italian_Aosta_Valley 61.8 27.8 9.8 0.6 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
    Italian_Lazio 61.4 13.2 11.0 7.8 6.6 0.0 0.0 0.0
    Italian_Northeast 60.6 26.8 11.0 1.2 0.4 0.0 0.0 0.0
    Italian_Liguria 60.2 20.4 14.0 4.6 0.0 0.6 0.2 0.0
    Italian_Molise 60.0 5.0 14.2 7.4 6.4 7.0 0.0 0.0
    Italian_Marche 59.8 10.2 14.2 7.6 3.6 4.6 0.0 0.0
    Italian_Apulia 59.4 3.2 14.8 9.6 6.4 6.6 0.0 0.0
    Italian_Abruzzo 59.2 5.0 13.4 8.8 6.8 6.8 0.0 0.0
    Italian_Basilicata 58.8 3.0 14.4 9.8 7.4 6.6 0.0 0.0
    Italian_Campania 58.6 1.4 13.2 11.0 8.6 7.2 0.0 0.0
    Italian_Calabria 58.2 0.0 14.2 11.4 8.8 7.4 0.0 0.0
    Sicilian_East 56.2 8.2 14.2 13.0 7.0 1.4 0.0 0.0
    Sicilian_West 54.8 13.0 10.4 13.4 8.4 0.0 0.0 0.0
    Maltese 53.8 2.0 11.2 15.4 8.4 8.2 1.0 0.0
    Italian_Jew 52.0 0.0 11.6 20.2 10.6 5.6 0.0 0.0
    Why do you use Bonkulu instead Barcin? Because of the WHG shift?
    Target: Ioannis_scaled
    Distance: 1.4987% / 0.01498655
    51.8 TUR_Ikiztepe_LC
    24.6 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
    14.8 Levant_Baqah_BA
    5.4 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
    3.4 RUS_Catacomb

  9. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cascio View Post
    I was referring to all of Italy in this regard though it applies more to the south, a bit less to the centre and even less to the north.

    However all of Italy was affected, to some extent, by Levantine admixture, and to a much smaller extent, by Germanic admixture (notably in the medieval nobility but also at lower social levels too).

    Even after the demise of the Western Roman Empire in the later 5th century CE, Levantine elements continued to flow into "Byzantine" Italy up to the middle 8th century and from there into the former Langobard areas of the country.
    How much Germanic/North Italian like admixture South Italians have pretty much?
    Target: Ioannis_scaled
    Distance: 1.4987% / 0.01498655
    51.8 TUR_Ikiztepe_LC
    24.6 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
    14.8 Levant_Baqah_BA
    5.4 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
    3.4 RUS_Catacomb

  10. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny ola View Post
    How much Germanic/North Italian like admixture South Italians have pretty much?
    I don't think there is Germanic ancestry, but if the average population of southern Italy was ITA_Rome_Imperial-like, then there was an admixture event that increased not only Steppe, but also EEF and decreased Natufian, Iranian Neolithic and CHG. I am more inclined to believe either that we have remained almost identical since Roman times, or that there has most likely been a North Italian-like migration that has had an impact on the population of southern Italy during the Early Middle Ages.

    TUR_Boncuklu_N GEO_CHG Levant_Natufian IRN_Tepe_Abdul_Hosein_N RUS_Sidelkino_HG UKR_Meso
    ITA_Rome_Imperial 56.0 16.0 13.8 11.2 3.0 0.0
    Italian_Calabria 58.0 14.4 11.4 8.8 7.4 0.0
    Italian_Campania 58.6 13.2 10.8 8.8 6.2 2.4
    Italian_Basilicata 58.8 14.4 9.6 7.6 5.6 4.0
    Italian_Abruzzo 59.2 13.4 8.6 7.0 5.8 6.0
    Italian_Apulia 59.4 14.8 9.4 6.6 5.8 4.0
    Italian_Molise 60.0 14.2 7.2 6.6 6.2 5.8

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny ola View Post
    Why do you use Bonkulu instead Barcin? Because of the WHG shift?
    Barcin is Pinarbasi/Boncuklu + 5% Natufian.

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  12. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajeje Brazorf View Post
    I don't think there is Germanic ancestry, but if the average population of southern Italy was ITA_Rome_Imperial-like, then there was an admixture event that increased not only Steppe, but also EEF and decreased Natufian, Iranian Neolithic and CHG. I am more inclined to believe either that we have remained almost identical since Roman times, or that there has most likely been a North Italian-like migration that has had an impact on the population of southern Italy during the Early Middle Ages.

    TUR_Boncuklu_N GEO_CHG Levant_Natufian IRN_Tepe_Abdul_Hosein_N RUS_Sidelkino_HG UKR_Meso
    ITA_Rome_Imperial 56.0 16.0 13.8 11.2 3.0 0.0
    Italian_Calabria 58.0 14.4 11.4 8.8 7.4 0.0
    Italian_Campania 58.6 13.2 10.8 8.8 6.2 2.4
    Italian_Basilicata 58.8 14.4 9.6 7.6 5.6 4.0
    Italian_Abruzzo 59.2 13.4 8.6 7.0 5.8 6.0
    Italian_Apulia 59.4 14.8 9.4 6.6 5.8 4.0
    Italian_Molise 60.0 14.2 7.2 6.6 6.2 5.8



    Barcin is Pinarbasi/Boncuklu + 5% Natufian.
    I think the same.South Italians overall started Western Med and they ended up more East med.They share both the Italic heritage from IE Italic tribes but also decent Greek ancestry witch is obvious also from yDNA thought. Btw what is your yDNA??But the big question here is where exactly this type of near east admixture arrived both in Greece and South Italy.Do you think we are going to see IA samples with such an admixture?
    Target: Ioannis_scaled
    Distance: 1.4987% / 0.01498655
    51.8 TUR_Ikiztepe_LC
    24.6 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
    14.8 Levant_Baqah_BA
    5.4 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
    3.4 RUS_Catacomb

  13. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny ola View Post
    I am wondering if this extra middle east input among Greeks and Italians arrived during IA period but it increased during Hellenistic and Roman Ages.
    I would certainly agree with that statement.
    Last edited by Cascio; 07-28-2020 at 11:48 AM.

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  15. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny ola View Post
    I think the same.South Italians overall started Western Med and they ended up more East med.They share both the Italic heritage from IE Italic tribes but also decent Greek ancestry witch is obvious also from yDNA thought. Btw what is your yDNA??But the big question here is where exactly this type of near east admixture arrived both in Greece and South Italy.Do you think we are going to see IA samples with such an admixture?
    Having tested with MyHeritage, I could not know what my Y-DNA is. I cannot tell you precisely when Near Eastern admixture arrived in Italy, but it was already present in some samples from 650 and 300 BC. Probably in these periods it was only a minority, but it would have intensified towards the end or in the middle of the Republican period of Rome. The only answer I can give you is that we need ancient DNA to make precise statements, and the same is true for the Near Eastern admixture in Greece. I think it arrived in Greece in the Hellenistic period, but it seems that before the Slavic migration there was especially an Anatolian influence in mainland Greece. I am not 100% sure what I am saying anyway.

    TUR_Boncuklu_N GEO_CHG IRN_Tepe_Abdul_Hosein_N Levant_Natufian UKR_Meso RUS_Sidelkino_HG RUS_AfontovaGora3
    GRC_Mycenaean:I9041 75.0 13.8 4.0 5.8 0.0 0.0 1.4
    Greek_Peloponnese 62.8 13.4 6.8 4.4 4.8 7.8 0.0
    Greek_Thessaly 60.6 14.4 4.0 4.0 10.4 6.6 0.0
    Greek_Izmir 59.2 15.0 7.4 7.0 5.4 6.0 0.0
    Greek_Central_Macedonia 59.0 13.0 4.8 4.2 15.6 3.4 0.0
    Greek_Kos 57.2 16.4 12.2 10.4 0.0 3.8 0.0
    Greek_Crete 55.2 16.2 10.8 11.2 2.8 3.8 0.0

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