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Thread: What percentage of Turks are genetically similar/identical to mainland Greeks?

  1. #1
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    What percentage of Turks are genetically similar/identical to mainland Greeks?

    I have heard many people repeating the claim that Turks, or at least some section of them are just Turkified Greeks. However it appears they are heavily Turanian influenced, while others are essentially Armenian on G25.
    This is how I set it up, sorry if this is not the best model but Im not familiar with this region and I wanted to get a better idea:

    Code:
    1	Armenian +Assyrian +Greek +Kazakh +Turkmen	Turkish_Adana:Average		0.9476	Open Map	17.5	49.17	16.67	8.33	8.33
    2	Armenian +Assyrian +Greek +Kazakh +Turkmen	Turkish_Aydin:Average		1.2871	Open Map	15.83	27.5	30.83	17.5	8.33
    3	Armenian +Assyrian +Greek +Kazakh +Turkmen	Turkish_Balikesir:Average		1.0495	Open Map	24.17	11.67	34.17	13.33	16.67
    4	Armenian +Assyrian +Greek +Kazakh +Turkmen	Turkish_Istanbul:Average		1.0048	Open Map	34.17	10.83	41.67	9.17	4.17
    5	Armenian +Assyrian +Greek +Kazakh +Turkmen	Turkish_Kayseri:Average		0.4736	Open Map	39.17	31.67	15	6.67	7.5
    6	Armenian +Assyrian +Greek +Kazakh +Turkmen	Turkish_Trabzon:Average		1.9672	Open Map	95.83	0	4.17	0	0
    I believe there have to be at least some Turks in the western areas that are identical to mainland Greeks, but the question is how many?

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    The Greeks that the invading Turkic tribes integrated, culminating in the ethnogenesis of Turkey as we know it today would have much better resembled Anatolian Greeks than they would have mainland Greeks. There did occur 'transportation' of mainland Greek children from their homes in occupied Greece to the Ottoman Empire, but it is very unlikely that these individuals when reaching adulthood maintained their genetic profile without marrying into Turkish families.

    The only way a Turk would be identical or highly similar to a mainland Greek would be if most of their immediate family were migrants from Greece itself. Greeks and Turks may live in proximity to each other, but they are highly differentiated on a genetic level. The western Turks, for example, appear to have the highest levels of East Eurasian admixture in Anatolia. When you consider that mainland Greeks (or any Greek, really) are overwhelmingly of West Eurasian origin it is pretty clear that western Turks, whilst the closest to actual Greece, are still very different people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Censored View Post
    I believe there have to be at least some Turks in the western areas that are identical to mainland Greeks, but the question is how many?
    I have hundreds of samples from all across Anatolia (Turks, Kurds, Zazas, Circassians, Crimean Tatars, Armenians, Pontic Greeks, Cappadocian Greeks, Arab Alawites, Pomaks, Bosnians, Albanians and so on), since I'm one of the administrators of the Turkish DNA project. The only region where you can find ethnic Turks with identical autosomal DNA to any Greek-speaking population is the East Black Sea Region (Trabzon and Rize). Majority of Turks from Trabzon are genetically identical to Pontic Greeks, while Turks from Rize seem to be closer to Lazes. The difference between Pontic Greeks and Lazes is that the former have more affinity to Anatolia_Neolithic (probably due to the former being closer to the Anatolian heartland), the same difference can be observed between Lazes and Georgians from Adjara.

    Turks from western parts of the peninsula have the highest levels of Central Asian ancestry.
     


    Out of 100+ Turkish individuals from Central Anatolia, this is the closest Turkish individual to Cappadocian Greeks. She has lower levels of Central Asian ancestry than the Central Anatolian Turkish averages and is closer to but not identical to Cappadocian Greeks, almost halfway between Cappadocian Greeks and the Central Anatolian Turkish averages (Turk_Central_East and Turk_Central_West).

    Single Population Approximation List:

    1. Turk_Central_East @ 5,654698
    2. Turk_Central_West @ 6,490948
    3. Turk_Central_Black_Sea @ 7,029388
    4. Turk_Southeast @ 7,38443
    5. Turk_Cyprus @ 7,423053
    6. Turk_East @ 7,433142
    7. Greek_Cappadocia @ 7,441284
    8. Turk_West_Black_Sea @ 7,49578
    9. Turk_South @ 7,759125
    10. Nusayri_Turkey @ 8,529244
    11. Turk_Southwest @ 8,855846
    12. Azerbaijani_Turkey @ 9,75561
    13. Greek_Cyprus @ 10,007996
    14. Armenian_West @ 10,015678
    15. Azov_Greek @ 10,049507
    16. Greek_Crete @ 10,171681
    17. Azerbaijani @ 10,620537
    18. Turkmen_Iraq @ 10,904733
    19. Crimean_Tatar_Coast @ 11,228062
    20. Turk_Northwest @ 11,361246


    2-Population Approximation List:

    1. %33 Italian_South + %67 Turk_East @ 2,133595
    2. %84 Greek_Cappadocia + %16 Wusun_DA223 @ 2,292731
    3. %42 Greek_Crete + %58 Turk_East @ 2,347211
    4. %29 Sicilian_Center + %71 Turk_East @ 2,382368
    5. %46 Greek_Cappadocia + %54 Turk_Central_West @ 2,402075
    6. %50 Greek_Cappadocia + %50 Turk_West_Black_Sea @ 2,527835
    7. %46 Italian_South + %54 Zaza @ 2,541782
    8. %61 Azerbaijani_Turkey + %39 Italian_South @ 2,55264
    9. %51 Azerbaijani_Turkey + %49 Greek_Crete @ 2,574345
    10. %30 Ashkenazi_Jew + %70 Turk_East @ 2,591415
    11. %42 Greek_Cappadocia + %58 Turk_Central_East @ 2,605842
    12. %42 Sicilian_Center + %58 Zaza @ 2,637595
    13. %29 Sicilian_Siracusa + %71 Turk_East @ 2,64163
    14. %46 Sicilian_Center + %54 Talysh_Azerbaijan @ 2,668396
    15. %85 Greek_Cappadocia + %15 Sarmatian_PR9 @ 2,674051
    16. %54 Azerbaijani_Iran + %46 Italian_South @ 2,769087
    17. %50 Italian_South + %50 Talysh_Azerbaijan @ 2,801571
    18. %32 Italian_South + %68 Turk_Southeast @ 2,823153
    19. %65 Azerbaijani_Turkey + %35 Sicilian_Center @ 2,832458
    20. %47 Italian_South + %53 Kurd_Kurmanji @ 2,84074


    Quote Originally Posted by Censored View Post
    However it appears they are heavily Turanian influenced, while others are essentially Armenian on G25.
    This is how I set it up, sorry if this is not the best model but Im not familiar with this region and I wanted to get a better idea:
    Global K25 has Anatolian Greek samples, you could have used them. Since we don't have any autosomal DNA sample from the Eastern Roman period, we have to rely on modern Anatolian Greek populations to represent the Eastern Roman Anatolia. I believe, the combination of Greek_Central_Anatolia, Greek_Trabzon (Eastern Black Sea) and Greek_Crete can represent most (if not all) of the Greek-speaking population in pre-Turkic Anatolia. Kazakhs are also not really a good reference as they are more East Eurasian than the Medieval Turkic samples from eastern Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan (Göktürk, Karluk, Karakhanid, Kipchak). The Hodoğlugil & Mahley samples (Turkish_Adana, Turkish_Aydin, Turkish_Istanbul, Turkish_Kayseri) include non-Turks too. Only Balıkesir and Trabzon seem to be represented totally by their native Turkish inhabitants.

    It makes more sense to use the combination of Anatolian Greeks and the Medieval Turkic samples from Central Asia when modeling Anatolian Turks. There is no Oghuz sample yet, but we can use the eastern neighbours of the Oghuz (Kipchaks and Karluks).


    Turkish_Balıkesir (West Anatolia) model 1:

    Greek (mainland)
    Greek_Central_Anatolia
    Greek_Trabzon
    Kipchak (Medieval Turkic samples from Central Asia, Kipchaks were among the eastern neighbours of the Oghuz)
    Model Sample Details Fit Map Greek Greek Central Anatolia Greek Crete Kipchak
    1 Greek +Greek_Central_Anatolia +Greek_Crete +Kipchak Turkish_Balikesir:Average 1.4594 23.33 40 1.67 35


    Turkish_Balıkesir (West Anatolia) model 2:

    Greek (mainland)
    Greek_Central_Anatolia
    Greek_Trabzon
    Karluk (Medieval Turkic samples from Central Asia, Karluks were among the eastern neighbours of the Oghuz)
    Model Sample Details Fit Map Greek Greek Central Anatolia Greek Crete Karluk
    1 Greek +Greek_Central_Anatolia +Greek_Crete +Karluk Turkish_Balikesir:Average 1.3344 30 41.67 0.83 27.5


    Turk_Balıkesir (West Anatolia) model 3:

    Greek (mainland)
    Greek_Central_Anatolia
    Greek_Trabzon
    Turk_Medieval (Göktürk-period Turkic samples from Central Asia)
    Model Sample Details Fit Map Greek Greek Central Anatolia Greek Crete Turk Medieval
    1 Greek +Greek_Central_Anatolia +Greek_Crete +Turk_Medieval Turkish_Balikesir:Average 1.4151 7.5 43.33 12.5 36.67


    Turkish_Aydin (West Anatolia model 1:
    Greek_Crete
    Greek_Central_Anatolia
    Kipchak
    Turk_Medieval
    Model Sample Details Fit Map Greek Central Anatolia Greek Crete Kipchak Turk Medieval
    1 Greek_Central_Anatolia +Greek_Crete +Kipchak +Turk_Medieval Turkish_Aydin:Average 1.1823 55.83 10 15.83 18.33


    Turkish_Kayseri (East-Central Anatolia) model 1:
    Greek_Central_Anatolia
    Karluk
    Kipchak
    Turk_Medieval
    Model Sample Details Fit Map Greek Central Anatolia Karluk Kipchak Turk Medieval
    1 Greek_Central_Anatolia +Karluk +Kipchak +Turk_Medieval Turkish_Kayseri:Average 1.6706 75.83 5.83 0.83 17.5


    Turkish_Trabzon (East Black Sea) model 1:
    Greek_Trabzon
    Karluk
    Kipchak
    Turk_Medieval
    Model Sample Details Fit Map Greek Trabzon Karluk Kipchak Turk Medieval
    1 Greek_Trabzon +Karluk +Kipchak +Turk_Medieval Turkish_Trabzon:Average 0.9206 100 0 0 0
    Last edited by Alkaevli; 12-27-2018 at 12:01 AM.
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  6. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alkaevli View Post
    I have hundreds of samples from all across Anatolia (Turks, Kurds, Zazas, Circassians, Crimean Tatars, Armenians, Pontic Greeks, Cappadocian Greeks, Arab Alawites, Pomaks, Bosnians, Albanians and so on), since I'm one of the administrators of the Turkish DNA project. The only region where you can find ethnic Turks with identical autosomal DNA to any Greek-speaking population is the East Black Sea Region (Trabzon and Rize). Majority of Turks from Trabzon are genetically identical to Pontic Greeks, while Turks from Rize seem to be closer to Lazes. The difference between Pontic Greeks and Lazes is that the former have more affinity to Anatolia_Neolithic (probably due to the former being closer to the Anatolian heartland), the same difference can be observed between Lazes and Georgians from Adjara.

    Turks from western parts of the peninsula have the highest levels of Central Asian ancestry.
     


    Out of 100+ Turkish individuals from Central Anatolia, this is the closest Turkish individual to Cappadocian Greeks. She has lower levels of Central Asian ancestry than the Central Anatolian Turkish averages and is closer to but not identical to Cappadocian Greeks, almost halfway between Cappadocian Greeks and the Central Anatolian Turkish averages (Turk_Central_East and Turk_Central_West).

    Single Population Approximation List:

    1. Turk_Central_East @ 5,654698
    2. Turk_Central_West @ 6,490948
    3. Turk_Central_Black_Sea @ 7,029388
    4. Turk_Southeast @ 7,38443
    5. Turk_Cyprus @ 7,423053
    6. Turk_East @ 7,433142
    7. Greek_Cappadocia @ 7,441284
    8. Turk_West_Black_Sea @ 7,49578
    9. Turk_South @ 7,759125
    10. Nusayri_Turkey @ 8,529244
    11. Turk_Southwest @ 8,855846
    12. Azerbaijani_Turkey @ 9,75561
    13. Greek_Cyprus @ 10,007996
    14. Armenian_West @ 10,015678
    15. Azov_Greek @ 10,049507
    16. Greek_Crete @ 10,171681
    17. Azerbaijani @ 10,620537
    18. Turkmen_Iraq @ 10,904733
    19. Crimean_Tatar_Coast @ 11,228062
    20. Turk_Northwest @ 11,361246


    2-Population Approximation List:

    1. %33 Italian_South + %67 Turk_East @ 2,133595
    2. %84 Greek_Cappadocia + %16 Wusun_DA223 @ 2,292731
    3. %42 Greek_Crete + %58 Turk_East @ 2,347211
    4. %29 Sicilian_Center + %71 Turk_East @ 2,382368
    5. %46 Greek_Cappadocia + %54 Turk_Central_West @ 2,402075
    6. %50 Greek_Cappadocia + %50 Turk_West_Black_Sea @ 2,527835
    7. %46 Italian_South + %54 Zaza @ 2,541782
    8. %61 Azerbaijani_Turkey + %39 Italian_South @ 2,55264
    9. %51 Azerbaijani_Turkey + %49 Greek_Crete @ 2,574345
    10. %30 Ashkenazi_Jew + %70 Turk_East @ 2,591415
    11. %42 Greek_Cappadocia + %58 Turk_Central_East @ 2,605842
    12. %42 Sicilian_Center + %58 Zaza @ 2,637595
    13. %29 Sicilian_Siracusa + %71 Turk_East @ 2,64163
    14. %46 Sicilian_Center + %54 Talysh_Azerbaijan @ 2,668396
    15. %85 Greek_Cappadocia + %15 Sarmatian_PR9 @ 2,674051
    16. %54 Azerbaijani_Iran + %46 Italian_South @ 2,769087
    17. %50 Italian_South + %50 Talysh_Azerbaijan @ 2,801571
    18. %32 Italian_South + %68 Turk_Southeast @ 2,823153
    19. %65 Azerbaijani_Turkey + %35 Sicilian_Center @ 2,832458
    20. %47 Italian_South + %53 Kurd_Kurmanji @ 2,84074



    Global K25 has Anatolian Greek samples, you could have used them. Since we don't have any autosomal DNA sample from the Eastern Roman period, we have to rely on modern Anatolian Greek populations to represent the Eastern Roman Anatolia. I believe, the combination of Greek_Central_Anatolia, Greek_Trabzon (Eastern Black Sea) and Greek_Crete can represent most (if not all) of the Greek-speaking population in pre-Turkic Anatolia. Kazakhs are also not really a good reference as they are more East Eurasian than the Medieval Turkic samples from eastern Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan (Göktürk, Karluk, Karakhanid, Kipchak). The Hodoğlugil & Mahley samples (Turkish_Adana, Turkish_Aydin, Turkish_Istanbul, Turkish_Kayseri) include non-Turks too. Only Balıkesir and Trabzon seem to be represented totally by their native Turkish inhabitants.

    It makes more sense to use the combination of Anatolian Greeks and the Medieval Turkic samples from Central Asia when modeling Anatolian Turks. There is no Oghuz sample yet, but we can use the eastern neighbours of the Oghuz (Kipchaks and Karluks).


    Turkish_Balıkesir (West Anatolia) model 1:

    Greek (mainland)
    Greek_Central_Anatolia
    Greek_Trabzon
    Kipchak (Medieval Turkic samples from Central Asia, Kipchaks were among the eastern neighbours of the Oghuz)
    Model Sample Details Fit Map Greek Greek Central Anatolia Greek Crete Kipchak
    1 Greek +Greek_Central_Anatolia +Greek_Crete +Kipchak Turkish_Balikesir:Average 1.4594 23.33 40 1.67 35


    Turkish_Balıkesir (West Anatolia) model 2:

    Greek (mainland)
    Greek_Central_Anatolia
    Greek_Trabzon
    Karluk (Medieval Turkic samples from Central Asia, Karluks were among the eastern neighbours of the Oghuz)
    Model Sample Details Fit Map Greek Greek Central Anatolia Greek Crete Karluk
    1 Greek +Greek_Central_Anatolia +Greek_Crete +Karluk Turkish_Balikesir:Average 1.3344 30 41.67 0.83 27.5


    Turk_Balıkesir (West Anatolia) model 3:

    Greek (mainland)
    Greek_Central_Anatolia
    Greek_Trabzon
    Turk_Medieval (Göktürk-period Turkic samples from Central Asia)
    Model Sample Details Fit Map Greek Greek Central Anatolia Greek Crete Turk Medieval
    1 Greek +Greek_Central_Anatolia +Greek_Crete +Turk_Medieval Turkish_Balikesir:Average 1.4151 7.5 43.33 12.5 36.67


    Turkish_Aydin (West Anatolia model 1:
    Greek_Crete
    Greek_Central_Anatolia
    Kipchak
    Turk_Medieval
    Model Sample Details Fit Map Greek Central Anatolia Greek Crete Kipchak Turk Medieval
    1 Greek_Central_Anatolia +Greek_Crete +Kipchak +Turk_Medieval Turkish_Aydin:Average 1.1823 55.83 10 15.83 18.33


    Turkish_Kayseri (East-Central Anatolia) model 1:
    Greek_Central_Anatolia
    Karluk
    Kipchak
    Turk_Medieval
    Model Sample Details Fit Map Greek Central Anatolia Karluk Kipchak Turk Medieval
    1 Greek_Central_Anatolia +Karluk +Kipchak +Turk_Medieval Turkish_Kayseri:Average 1.6706 75.83 5.83 0.83 17.5


    Turkish_Trabzon (East Black Sea) model 1:
    Greek_Trabzon
    Karluk
    Kipchak
    Turk_Medieval
    Model Sample Details Fit Map Greek Trabzon Karluk Kipchak Turk Medieval
    1 Greek_Trabzon +Karluk +Kipchak +Turk_Medieval Turkish_Trabzon:Average 0.9206 100 0 0 0
    Thank you. My question was primarily about affinity to mainland Greeks which is why I didn't include the Anatolian or Cretan samples. As for the Central Asian, yes that's true, I just didn't know which population to use as a proxy for Turkic ancestry so I just used modern ones.

    Also, there were large Assyrian/Armenian like populations living at the time of the Greek diaspora right? That's why I added them to the model. As for Greeks from Anatolia I was not sure to what extent they were a mix of Greek settlers from Greece proper vs. assimilated Anatolians. I wanted as little overlap as possible essentially. But this is good info regardless.

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    My mother’s 4-way oracle. She is from the Aegean coast.

    Mdlp k16

    Using 2 populations approximation:
    1 50% Greek_Greece +50% Turkmen_Xojayli @ 4.746388


    Using 3 populations approximation:
    1 50% Greek_Greece +25% Kazakh_Tien_Shan +25% Turk_Adana @ 2.804397


    Using 4 populations approximation:
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++
    1 Altaian_Altai + Armenian_Armenia + Greek_Macedonia + Greek_Greece @ 1.599773
    2 Altaian_Altai + Armenian_Armenia + Greek_Macedonia + Greek_Greece @ 1.691224
    3 Altaian_Altai + Armenian_Armenia + Greek_Peloponnes + Greek_Greece @ 1.830894
    4 Altaian_Altai + Armenian_Armenia + Greek_Macedonia + Greek_Athens @ 1.831236
    5 Altaian_Altai + French_France + Jew_Iraqi + Turk_Trabzon @ 1.846173
    6 Altaian_Altai + Georgian_Laz + Greek_Macedonia + Greek_Greece @ 1.848502
    7 Altaian_Altai + Armenian_Armenia + Greek_Macedonia + Greek_Athens @ 1.854086
    8 Altaian_Altai + Armenian_Armenia + Greek_Peloponnes + Greek_Greece @ 1.987089
    9 Adjar_Adjaria + Altaian_Altai + Greek_Greece + Greek_Greece @ 1.990356
    10 Altaian_Altai + German_Germany + Jew_Iraqi + Turk_Trabzon @ 1.999371
    11 Altaian_Altai + Armenian_Armenia + Greek_Greece + Greek_Athens @ 2.010716
    12 Altaian_Altai + Armenian_Armenia + Greek_Greece + Greek_Greece @ 2.020939
    13 Altaian_Altai + Armenian_Vardnis + Armenian_Armenia + Italian_Bergamo @ 2.064064
    14 Armenian_Armenia + Greek_Greece + Kazakh_Tien_Shan + Turk_Turkey @ 2.064903
    15 Altaian_Altai + Armenian_Armenia + Greek_Macedonia + Greek_Macedonia @ 2.069279
    16 Altaian_Altai + Armenian_Armenia + Greek_Greece + Greek_Greece @ 2.083977
    17 Altaian_Altai + Georgian_Georgia + Greek_Greece + Greek_Greece @ 2.091938
    18 Altaian_Altai + Georgian_Kakheti + Greek_Greece + Greek_Greece @ 2.104264
    19 Armenian_Armenia + Kazakh_Tien_Shan + Kosovar_Kosovo + Turk_Turkey @ 2.124845
    20 Altaian_Altai + Georgian_Laz + Greek_Greece + Greek_Greece @ 2.134470

    Imo, Aegean Turks are the closest one to Aegean Greeks. They are not close to them but closer than the rest of the country. They said that my Grandfather was a "Tatar". AFAIK my grandmothers family always lived there.
    Last edited by Mrtni; 06-12-2021 at 02:34 AM.

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    A lot of them. You can find Cappadocian, Anatolian, Pontic Greeks living in the mainland who have a lot of west asian DNA. I think 4/10 greeks have ancestry from those groups.

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