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Thread: FGC6545 & the Ui Maine?

  1. #1

    FGC6545 & the Ui Maine?

    It has been a number of years since SNP FGC6545 was identified with the Ui Maine line. However the results posted at ytree.org, only show two family groups: the O'Kellys (showing FGC6545 as the Ui Maine line) and the Trainors from the area associated with the Airgíalla. Are there other families that are FGC6545+, such as the Maddens, Larking, Egans?

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  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Muireagain View Post
    It has been a number of years since SNP FGC6545 was identified with the Ui Maine line. However the results posted at ytree.org, only show two family groups: the O'Kellys (showing FGC6545 as the Ui Maine line) and the Trainors from the area associated with the Airgíalla. Are there other families that are FGC6545+, such as the Maddens, Larking, Egans?

    From your use of last names, I surmise that you are already familiar with Alex Williamson's Big Tree project. The two clusters you describe (Ui Maine Treinfhir and Ceallaig are the dominant clusters for FGC6545. The other names you mention (as well as Pugh, Townsend Lloyd Dyer Heavey, Green, and Shannon) that descend from otherwise predominately Kelly clusters look like non-paternal events (adoption, name change, etc). It is ironic that the names linked to Threinfhir in the annals of the four masters (Braseal, Madden, etc) don't show up with much frequency. Obviously things can change with more Y-DNA tests on these names.

  5. #4
    I find no association of the family name Treindhir with the Ui Maine tribe? The surname is associated with the Airighialla. The O Ceallaigh, kings of Ui Maine, appear during Brian Boru’s conquest of Ireland. The O’Ceallaigh pedigree seems suspect.
    Last edited by Muireagain; 12-21-2019 at 12:11 AM.

  6. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muireagain View Post
    I find no association of the family name Treindhir with the Ui Maine tribe? The surname is associated with the Airighialla. The O Ceallaigh, kings of Ui Maine, appear during Brian Boru’s conquest of Ireland. The O’Ceallaigh pedigree seems suspect.
    The O'Ceallaigh surname appears during Brian Boru's conquest of Ireland because that is around the time that surnames were introduced. Tadhg Mór was only the 2nd generation of O'Ceallaigh. The pedigrees for every surname go far back in time and therefore can't be fully relied upon for any surname. There isn't really any way to know for certain how accurate these pedigrees are. Uí Maine is mentioned in the Annals of the Four Masters as early as 531 AD. The Annals were written retrospectively but there isn't much else in terms of documentation for the time. The settlement of Maine Mór from Tyrone is recorded in the 'Life Of St. Grellan.' A poem written in 1347 addressed to chief Eoghan O'Madden gives an account of the chiefs of Uí Maine up to Gadhra (ancestor of Eoghan O'Madden) who succeeded Tadhg Mór. The pedigree is then given of Gadhra down to the then current chief Eoghan O'Madden.

    So far, the pedigree would seem to be correct back to Domhnall Mór based on DNA testing with the Keogh tester allowing us to be quite certain that Domhnall Mór was positive for BY3437. Beyond that it is more uncertain since no other surnames have appeared except Traynor. The Traynor connection could be back from when the family were in Tyrone and therefore not descended from Maine Mór since the Traynors are largely based in the north.

    It should be considered that even if the pedigree between Domhnall Mór and Maine Mór is incorrect, there should be other surnames appearing regardless since other lines would have taken up different surnames around the same time. Surnames were only introduced about 800 AD in Ireland so other surnames than Kelly should be appearing whether connected or not to the pedigree but they're absent. Until more surnames appear, I don't think that the pedigree can be considered incorrect. The BY3442 SNP is in a block of 7 SNPs that is between the BY3437 block and the block of SNPs that the Traynors descend from. Therefore, there is plenty of opportunity for branching in the future to split that block of 7 SNPs with other surnames.

    If there is a problem with the pedigree, there could be a variety of reasons for this. The pedigree could have been falsified as you seem to be suggesting but there also could have been an NPE between Maine Mór and Domhnall Mór and there are lots of other possibilities to consider. However, I don't see why the pedigree would have been deliberately falsified when there were close connections with the O'Maddens who did act as chiefs of Uí Maine at different points in time.
    Last edited by FionnSneachta; 12-21-2019 at 01:34 AM.
    Ancestry: Ireland (Paper trail ≅ 81.25% Roscommon, 12.5% Galway, 6.25% Mayo)
    Y-DNA (P) ancestor (Y): Kelly b. c1830 in Co. Roscommon (Uí Maine)
    mtDNA (P) ancestor: Fleming b. c1831 in Co. Roscommon
    mtDNA (M) ancestor: McDermott b. c1814 in Co. Roscommon
    mtDNA Great grandfather: Connella b. c1798 in Co. Roscommon (T2a1a8)
    Y-DNA 2x great grandfather: Higgins b. c1816 in Co. Roscommon (R-DF109)
    Y-DNA 3x great grandfather: Fleming b. c1829 in Co. Roscommon (R-Z23534)

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  8. #6
    Taidg Chatha Briain O Ceallaigh reigns from 1001 to his death at Clontarf in 1014. (The length of his reign is given in the 1347 poem to O'Madden.)
    his father Murchadh may or may not be the Murchadh king of Ui Maine recorded by the Annals of Inisfallen, AI962.3: Death of Murchad, king of Uí Maine. (AI records Ui Maine kings not found elsewhere.)
    his grandfather Aeda is not recorded in the annals.
    his great-grandfather Ceallaig is not recorded in the annals.
    his gg-grandfather Fhindachtaig is not recorded in the annals.
    his ggg-grandfather Ailella mac Finnrachtaig's death is record in U799.10: Ailill son of Innrechtach, king of Uí Maini of Connacht, dies.

    Prior to the Tadhg O Ceallaigh, other ruling line from Maine Moir appear in the annals, however the families descended from these lines are M222>A738+.

    The O'Ceallaigh does not have a strong grip of the throne of the Ui Maine until after Brian Boru. Brian Boru is also noted for placing the O'Neill over the Cenel Eoghain. Yet yDNA of the O'Neills of Ulster shown them to be unrelated to the Cenel Eoghain line.

  9. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muireagain View Post
    Taidg Chatha Briain O Ceallaigh reigns from 1001 to his death at Clontarf in 1014. (The length of his reign is given in the 1347 poem to O'Madden.)
    his father Murchadh may or may not be the Murchadh king of Ui Maine recorded by the Annals of Inisfallen, AI962.3: Death of Murchad, king of Uí Maine. (AI records Ui Maine kings not found elsewhere.)
    his grandfather Aeda is not recorded in the annals.
    his great-grandfather Ceallaig is not recorded in the annals.
    his gg-grandfather Fhindachtaig is not recorded in the annals.
    his ggg-grandfather Ailella mac Finnrachtaig's death is record in U799.10: Ailill son of Innrechtach, king of Uí Maini of Connacht, dies.

    Prior to the Tadhg O Ceallaigh, other ruling line from Maine Moir appear in the annals, however the families descended from these lines are M222>A738+.

    The O'Ceallaigh does not have a strong grip of the throne of the Ui Maine until after Brian Boru. Brian Boru is also noted for placing the O'Neill over the Cenel Eoghain. Yet yDNA of the O'Neills of Ulster shown them to be unrelated to the Cenel Eoghain line.
    The chief of Uí Maine was not a title that passed from father to son. Therefore, not all of Tadhg's direct paternal ancestors would be recorded in the Annals since they were not all chiefs. The Annals of the Four Masters records the death of Tadhg Mór's father Murchadh: "A.D. 960 - Murchadh, son of Aedh, lord of Hy-Many in Connaught, died."

    It is stated in the Registry of Clonmacnoise that Ceallach (great grandfather of Tadhg Mór) granted several townlands to the Church of Clonmacnoise: "Kellagh, mac Finachta, mac Oililla, mac Innrachta, mac Fithiollaigh, mac Dluthaigh, mac Dithcolla, mac Eogain Finn, mac Cormaic, mac Cairbre Crum, from whom are the O'Kellies, bestowed of small cells" to various areas.

    It is possible that the O'Kelly family of Uí Maine did become more prominent after Tadhg Mór fought alongside Brian Boru. However, that wouldn't be unusual. Brian Boru was High King of Ireland so naturally it may have brought Tadhg's descendants to greater prominence through association. It still happens today when someone gets in with someone high up the social ladder.

    How can you be certain that those who are A738+ are the other Uí Maine families?
    Ancestry: Ireland (Paper trail ≅ 81.25% Roscommon, 12.5% Galway, 6.25% Mayo)
    Y-DNA (P) ancestor (Y): Kelly b. c1830 in Co. Roscommon (Uí Maine)
    mtDNA (P) ancestor: Fleming b. c1831 in Co. Roscommon
    mtDNA (M) ancestor: McDermott b. c1814 in Co. Roscommon
    mtDNA Great grandfather: Connella b. c1798 in Co. Roscommon (T2a1a8)
    Y-DNA 2x great grandfather: Higgins b. c1816 in Co. Roscommon (R-DF109)
    Y-DNA 3x great grandfather: Fleming b. c1829 in Co. Roscommon (R-Z23534)

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  11. #8
    Under Irish law, as recorded and present by MacNeill, Taidg Chatha Briain should not become king of the Ui Maine unless: his male line included a previous king of Ui Maine in the last three generation of his male line, i.e. his father, grandfather or great-grandfather had to have been king of Ui Maine. Now Ailella mac Finnrachtaig who is recorded in the annals as king of the Ui Maine is too far from Taidg Chatha Briain to allow him a legal claim the throne. Hence all focus is on the identity of Murchadh, those father is not identifed in the annals of Inisfallen. It is only an assumption that he can be identified with Murchadh mac Aedh, and this is what the four master did in the 17th century (much removed from the 9th century), so unless their evidence or any evidence can be presented we do not know for certain that the Murchadh who died circa 862 was Murchadh mac Aedh.

    However legal rights in Ireland and elsewhere were frequently trumped by might, as can be seen in Brian Boru installation of the alien O'Neill over Cenel Eoghain.

    The Ui Maine have been in Connacht since the 6th century if not earlier. Yet they are no other FGC6545+ families from Connacht (other than the O Ceallaigh). This seems very strange that there are no other Ui Maine families? Especially given the numerous families associated with the Ui Maine (shown below).

    There is a problem identifying what dynastic surnames emerged from the Ui Maine for only a fraction are identified in the Book of Ui Maine. And can we accept identification such as Clann Aedagain as the MacEgans or Muintir Chobhthaigh as the O'Coffey or Munitir Lorcain as the O'Lorcain? What follows are the major branches of the Ui Maine from the Book of the Ui Maine:

    Clann Cernaigh, gives rise to the O'Finain, O'Laidhin, O'Lachtnain, O'Conbhuidhi, O'Ullscaidh, O'Ceinneididh, O'Dorchaidhi, O'Sidhachain, O'Furadhain, O'Cuilein, O'Crabhadhain, per the Book of the Ui Maine
    Clann Comain ??
    Clann Cremthainn, identified with the O'Murcadhain and the O'Mugroin.
    Ua Nadsluaigh, i. e. O'Finain, per the Book of the Ui Maine
    Clann Cairpri Cruim, includes the O'Duibhginn
    Clann Aedhagain, identified with the MacEgan
    Clann Flaitheamhail Mic Dluthaigh ??
    Ua Domhnaill ??
    Clann Bresail, a quo the O'Domhnallains, per the Book of the Ui Maine
    Clann Fiachra Finn ??
    Clann Amlaibh ??
    Cinel Critain ??
    Ua Lomain ??
    Cinel Fathaidh ??
    Ui Cormaic of Maenmagh ??
    Ui Duach ??
    Cinel Aedha ??
    Sil Anmchadha give rise to the Ua Draighnen, viz., Ceannfaeladh, Ua Churrain, Ua Flannchadha, Ua Cinaeith, O'Gledra and Muintir Chobhthaigh. From the Muintir Chobhthaigh are the O'Maddens and Muinter Chinaith, and Muinter Tresaigh, and Muinter Laeghaire Mic Dunadhaigh, Ua Flannchadha, Ua Gledraigh, Ua Currain, Ua Aedha, Ua Cairten, and Ua Cuagain. And the h-Ui Donngalaigh, Muinter Chonnagain, Mac Cadhusaighs, Ui Ainchine Mic Ceallaigh, Ua Bimnein Mic Muireadhaigh, Ua Tolairg Mic Neill, Ua Aithusa Mic Neill, Ua Brenainn, Muinter Chicharain, Muinter Rodaighi, Muinter Conghalaigh, and h-Ua Daigin. And Mac Uallachans, Ua Dubhlaich, Muinter Lorcain, Mac Cellaighs, Ua Finnachtaigh, Ua Coscraidh, Ua Maenaigh, Ua Connachtain, Ua Canain, and Ua Maelduibh.

    As for A738 families the O'Coffey of south Roscommon can be identified as A738, the O Murchadhain of the lands of Clann Cremthainn are A738+, the Mac Aedhagain of east Galway are A738, the O Lorcain of southeast Galway are A738. All these families would normally associated with the Ui Maine, accept that they are A738 and not FGC6545 as mono-family of the O Ceallaigh. The different lines of these A738 families speak to a local diversity trending back to 6th century (based on the aging method developed by Iain McDonald, the median age of A738 is 1448.23 YBP (502 AD). with a 95% confidence interval is 228 AD to 796 AD.)

  12. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muireagain View Post
    Under Irish law, as recorded and present by MacNeill, Taidg Chatha Briain should not become king of the Ui Maine unless: his male line included a previous king of Ui Maine in the last three generation of his male line, i.e. his father, grandfather or great-grandfather had to have been king of Ui Maine. Now Ailella mac Finnrachtaig who is recorded in the annals as king of the Ui Maine is too far from Taidg Chatha Briain to allow him a legal claim the throne. Hence all focus is on the identity of Murchadh, those father is not identifed in the annals of Inisfallen. It is only an assumption that he can be identified with Murchadh mac Aedh, and this is what the four master did in the 17th century (much removed from the 9th century), so unless their evidence or any evidence can be presented we do not know for certain that the Murchadh who died circa 862 was Murchadh mac Aedh.

    However legal rights in Ireland and elsewhere were frequently trumped by might, as can be seen in Brian Boru installation of the alien O'Neill over Cenel Eoghain.

    The Ui Maine have been in Connacht since the 6th century if not earlier. Yet they are no other FGC6545+ families from Connacht (other than the O Ceallaigh). This seems very strange that there are no other Ui Maine families? Especially given the numerous families associated with the Ui Maine (shown below).

    There is a problem identifying what dynastic surnames emerged from the Ui Maine for only a fraction are identified in the Book of Ui Maine. And can we accept identification such as Clann Aedagain as the MacEgans or Muintir Chobhthaigh as the O'Coffey or Munitir Lorcain as the O'Lorcain?

    As for A738 families the O'Coffey of south Roscommon can be identified as A738, the O Murchadhain of the lands of Clann Cremthainn are A738+, the Mac Aedhagain of east Galway are A738, the O Lorcain of southeast Galway are A738. All these families would normally associated with the Ui Maine, accept that they are A738 and not FGC6545 as mono-family of the O Ceallaigh. The different lines of these A738 families speak to a local diversity trending back to 6th century (based on the aging method developed by Iain McDonald, the median age of A738 is 1448.23 YBP (502 AD). with a 95% confidence interval is 228 AD to 796 AD.)
    The chiefs of Uí Maine did not all follow the rule that the 'male line included a previous king of Uí Maine in the last three generation of his male line, i.e. his father, grandfather or great-grandfather had to have been king of Ui Maine.' 21. Diarmaid O'Madden sl. 1135 was chief of Uí Maine. However, the last chief of Uí Maine in his line was his 2x great grandfather 17. Gadhra Mór who succeeded Tadhg Mór. The last ancestor before 17. Gadhra was his 3x great grandfather 12. Cobhthach. Before 12. Cobhthach, it was his 2x great grandfather 8. Eoghan Buac. Looking at the Kelly line, there are other examples. 14. Finnachta was chief but his last ancestor was his 4x great grandfather 8. Eoghan Finn. 23. Conchobhar O'Kelly sl. 1180 who was chief had his last ancestor as chief being his 3x great grandfather 18. Tadhg Mór.

    Hypothetically, if it was a case that the chief of Uí Maine needed to have a great grandfather or closer to be chief, 18. Tadhg Mór's great grandfather 15. Ceallach is recorded as chief of Uí Maine as was Ceallach's father 14. Finnachta. I'm not sure why out of all the dates and statements provided by the Annals of the Four Masters that it is Murchadh who died in 960 and his father being called into question in particular. If it was a case that Brian Boru made the O'Kellys chiefs of Uí Maine, there were still O'Maddens becoming chiefs of Uí Maine after the Battle of Clontarf. It's not as if the O'Kellys with the aid of Brian completely supplanted the other families going by that. Brian Boru was born after Ceallach died and Murchadh (Tadhg Mór's father) had died before Brian Boru started trying to extend his authority.

    I understand that it is unusual that no other FGC6545+ families have appeared in Connacht. However, as said previously, it is true that other surnames should be appearing whether connected with Uí Maine or not. Unless other surnames of other family groups start appearing that are completely unrelated, I think that it's too soon to say there is something off about the O'Kelly pedigree going back to Maine Mór. The O'Kellys are hardly the only line of that family group to survive with no other BY3442+ surnames existing. They're not some group that disppeared off the face of the earth for generations and only returned around the time of Brian Boru.

    Looking at the A738+ surnames, there are a lot that I would not associate with Connacht. Dunne in particular is one that I'd associate with Leinster. I'm not very familiar with the Guinn surname but it seems to be associated with the Midlands. Also not very familiar with Knowles but seems to be associated with the Midlands as well. The Davis surname is assocaited with Wexford, Fermanagh and Dublin. Gallagher is associated with Donegal. There are Larkins associated with Leinster, Oriel, Uí Maine, Meath and Tipperary so it is not exclusive to Connacht. There are different origins for Coffey including Tipperary, Kerry, another Galway family, Cork, Uí Maine, Mayo, Westmeath, and Derry. There are various origins for Martin. The McGrails were a Gallowglass warrior family who established themselves in Counties Mayo and Leitrim. Heaneys are associated with Mayo and Limerick. The Egan surname is associated with Uí Maine, Monaghan, Armagh and Offaly. Morgan is associated with Westmeath, Longford, Offaly, and Uí Maine. To me looking at the pattern of the surnames, they seem to have a common location around the Midlands extending south to Limerick and north to Fermanagh.

    Whatever the case may be, the O'Kellys were chiefs of Uí Maine, at the very least, from the 1000s up to the 1600s. I don't think that they can be dismissed as not being the 'real' Uí Maine at that stage. It may be a case that other families were also of Uí Maine that aren't FGC6545+ but, if that is the case, it doesn't make one the real Uí Maine over the other. Both groups would have ruled Uí Maine at different stages.
    Ancestry: Ireland (Paper trail ≅ 81.25% Roscommon, 12.5% Galway, 6.25% Mayo)
    Y-DNA (P) ancestor (Y): Kelly b. c1830 in Co. Roscommon (Uí Maine)
    mtDNA (P) ancestor: Fleming b. c1831 in Co. Roscommon
    mtDNA (M) ancestor: McDermott b. c1814 in Co. Roscommon
    mtDNA Great grandfather: Connella b. c1798 in Co. Roscommon (T2a1a8)
    Y-DNA 2x great grandfather: Higgins b. c1816 in Co. Roscommon (R-DF109)
    Y-DNA 3x great grandfather: Fleming b. c1829 in Co. Roscommon (R-Z23534)

  13. #10
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    FionnSneachta, Looking at the A738+ surnames, there are a lot that I would not associate with Connacht. Dunne in particular is one that I'd associate with Leinster. I'm not very familiar with the Guinn surname but it seems to be associated with the Midlands. Also not very familiar with Knowles but seems to be associated with the Midlands as well. The Davis surname is assocaited with Wexford, Fermanagh and Dublin. Gallagher is associated with Donegal. There are Larkins associated with Leinster, Oriel, Uí Maine, Meath and Tipperary so it is not exclusive to Connacht. There are different origins for Coffey including Tipperary, Kerry, another Galway family, Cork, Uí Maine, Mayo, Westmeath, and Derry. There are various origins for Martin. The McGrails were a Gallowglass warrior family who established themselves in Counties Mayo and Leitrim. Heaneys are associated with Mayo and Limerick. The Egan surname is associated with Uí Maine, Monaghan, Armagh and Offaly. Morgan is associated with Westmeath, Longford, Offaly, and Uí Maine. To me looking at the pattern of the surnames, they seem to have a common location around the Midlands extending south to Limerick and north to Fermanagh.
    Interesting comment on the Egans as on the Clan Egan DNA Project the Group 2 (Egan & Keegan) are in number 50% of the Group and if SNP tested R-BY198+. That is Ui Briuin.
    Also found this interesting in relation to Group 4 - http://curleysurname.weebly.com/dna-results.html
    Last edited by Colk; 01-01-2020 at 08:20 PM. Reason: addressing previous post

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