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Thread: South Asian genetics misconceptions

  1. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapporo View Post
    Yes, it is true to some extent for all ethnic groups but Punjabis number around 100 million and are probably one of the least uniform ethnic groups genetically on the planet. It can be so extreme that you would be hard pressed to convince some people that the extremes are actually from the same ethnicity (the intra group diversity is so large that they can be genetically closer to unrelated populations living 1-2k+ kilometers away from the Punjab in comparison to someone from the same village).
    The geographic extant of populations speaking languages and dialects of Punjabi branch is vast; from Peshawar/Kohat in the West to Chandigarh in the East and from north KPK to borders of Sindh/Balochistan.
    So much so that mutual intellagibilty decreases as we go east to west and north to south.

    This coupled with migrations and endogamy gives us the variation we see today in Punjab.

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  3. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cynic View Post
    For the most part, yes. As for your argument about castes, I do not think that the lower castes are migrating to the west as a result of discrimination and as such I doubt Ive ever encountered any(though I cannot be sure). So that aspect is not really relevant in these conversations.
    At least you admit it. It's always cute to see foreigners lecture you about your own region. It's the whole nauseating Europeans or other groups are diverse but all Indians or South Asians are basically the same argument/trope ad nauseam (I've seen this countless times when it comes to 23andMe breakdowns for South Asians vs. Europeans). Europeans or West Asians can have massive phenotype variation but 1 billion+ South Asians are surprisingly uniform ("it's the you're all the same anyways" stereotype applied to both South and East Asians).

    I'm glad to hear you're also intimately familiar with the intra-Punjabi western diaspora demographics. Perhaps you can teach me about it if you get the chance?
    Last edited by Sapporo; 06-13-2021 at 02:58 AM.
    pegasus modeling:
    sample": "Punjabi_Jat:Sapporo_AGUser",
    "fit": 1.1506,
    "IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3": 43.33,
    "TKM_Gonur1_BA": 31.67,
    "RUS_Sintashta_MLBA": 25,
    "closestDistances": [

    avatar credit goes out to aaronbee2010

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  5. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapporo View Post
    At least you admit it. It's always cute to see foreigners lecture you about your own region. It's the whole nauseating Europeans or other groups are diverse but all Indians or South Asians are basically the same argument ad nauseam. Europeans or West Asians can have massive phenotype variation but 1 billion+ South Asians are surprisingly uniform.

    I'm glad to hear you're also intimately familiar with the intra-Punjabi western diaspora demographics. Maybe you can teach me about it if you get the chance?
    Don't put words in my mouth. I never said this. I actually find Europeans to be quite uniform as well, but that's only expected because Europe as a continent is genetically fairly uniform as well. The Middle East is about as phenotypically varied as one would expect taking genotype and geography into account. This contrasts to South Asia, which, as you said yourself, there are MASSIVE differences in genotype but those differences are not accompanied by the same degree of physical variation. There's a reason that most people myself included cannot distinguish between north, central, or even south indians(aside from the very stereotypical looking ones). That in spite of the huge effects of the Aryan invasion. But if my opinions offend you, let me know and we can put this discussion away before it gets too heated and moderators intervene.

    As for internal dynamics, I am not familiar with it. Tell me, are there large concentrations of downtrodden castes present in the diaspora? Because it seems somehow implausible.
    Last edited by Cynic; 06-12-2021 at 10:13 PM.

  6. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cynic View Post
    Don't put words in my mouth. I never said this. I actually find Europeans to be quite uniform as well, but that's only expected because Europe as a continent is genetically uniform as well. This contrasts to South Asia, which, as you said yourself, there are MASSIVE differences in genotype but those differences are not accompanied by the same degree of physical variation. There's a reason that most people myself included cannot distinguish between north, central, or even south indians(aside from the very stereotypical looking ones). That in spite of the huge effects of the Aryan invasion. The Middle East is about as phenotypically varied as one would expect taking genotype and geography into account. But if my opinions offend you, let me know and we can put this discussion away before it gets too heated and moderators intervene.

    As for internal dynamics, I am not familiar with it. Tell me, are there large concentrations of downtrodden castes present in the diaspora? Because it seems somehow implausible.
    I never explicitly stated you said that. It was simply an example of an argument I've seen quite a few times. Regardless, if you ever actually been to Europe (I've been to London, Paris, Edinburgh, Rome, Venice, Munich, Barcelona, etc.), you'll see that Europeans aren't actually that uniform phenotype wise. Phenotypes were clearly/visibly different in Rome or Barcelona vs London or Paris. Funnily enough, London has so much continental European immigration, you can see the wide range of European phenotype variation there alone.

    My only point is that you actually don't know squat about Punjabi phenotype variation let alone overall South Asian phenotype variation. And the way you come across is absurdly condescending even when someone from the region (ancestry wise) points this out. Like seriously, "There's a reason that most people myself included cannot distinguish between north, central, or even south indians(aside from the very stereotypical looking ones)." That is a super generalized sweeping statement to make about 1 billion+ people.

    Your opinions don't offend me. I'm not that petty. My only point is you actually have zero idea what you're talking about and are making sweeping generalizations. As for diaspora caste dynamics, there is actually a surprisingly large amount of "lower castes" who have migrated to the West (US, UK and Canada). But you wouldn't know that right? Even I didn't realize it until much later in my life (vs. my childhood). This is on top of the absurd phenotype variation you can find within a single family (due to the nature of divergent ancestries in South Asia).
    Last edited by Sapporo; 06-13-2021 at 01:09 AM.
    pegasus modeling:
    sample": "Punjabi_Jat:Sapporo_AGUser",
    "fit": 1.1506,
    "IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3": 43.33,
    "TKM_Gonur1_BA": 31.67,
    "RUS_Sintashta_MLBA": 25,
    "closestDistances": [

    avatar credit goes out to aaronbee2010

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  8. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cynic View Post
    Don't put words in my mouth. I never said this. I actually find Europeans to be quite uniform as well, but that's only expected because Europe as a continent is genetically fairly uniform as well. The Middle East is about as phenotypically varied as one would expect taking genotype and geography into account. This contrasts to South Asia, which, as you said yourself, there are MASSIVE differences in genotype but those differences are not accompanied by the same degree of physical variation. There's a reason that most people myself included cannot distinguish between north, central, or even south indians(aside from the very stereotypical looking ones). That in spite of the huge effects of the Aryan invasion. But if my opinions offend you, let me know and we can put this discussion away before it gets too heated and moderators intervene.

    As for internal dynamics, I am not familiar with it. Tell me, are there large concentrations of downtrodden castes present in the diaspora? Because it seems somehow implausible.
    Lol. This is clearly the cross race effect at play. As a Middle Easterner, you acknowledge the phenotypic differences between Middle Easterners, but Europeans and South Asians look the same to you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azbuzz View Post
    Lol. This is clearly the cross race effect at play. As a Middle Easterner, you acknowledge the phenotypic differences between Middle Easterners, but Europeans and South Asians look the same to you.
    His argument really veers towards the notion of certain Americans/Europeans mistaking the Near East and South Asia as being one large group of brown people, one and the same - a sentiment I'm sure he would vehemently disagree with, and rightfully so.
    Last edited by desi; 06-13-2021 at 12:23 AM.

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  12. #217
    well tbf, I have seen some posts on older threads labeling all groups south of delhi as 'interior indians' lol as if its one collective group.

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  14. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by naruto View Post
    well tbf, I have seen some posts on older threads labeling all groups south of delhi as 'interior indians' lol as if its one collective group.
    This forum and all South Asian genetics discussions, in general, have a massive Northwest bias. Anything south/east of Haryana is basically not considered interesting enough.

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  16. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azbuzz View Post
    Lol. This is clearly the cross race effect at play. As a Middle Easterner, you acknowledge the phenotypic differences between Middle Easterners, but Europeans and South Asians look the same to you.
    I've seen the opinion tossed around that "the difference is so great, anyone can see it". Why is it so hard for non-South Asians to differentiate between a lighter south Indian and a Punjabi for example? Well, it's clearly not the case then, right? You can't have it both ways.

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    Why are Punjabi being constantly dragged into this lol? In terms of the phenotype spectrum, we aren't even on the extreme end. I'd attribute that to the Kashmiri vis a vis South Indians.

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