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Thread: Descent from Royals, Sages, Saints [ South Asia ]

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by agent_lime View Post
    Do you have g25 coords?
    Yeah, I’m already on poi’s tool as a custom user. Look for misanthropy and misanthropy_brother

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     agent_lime (12-29-2018)

  3. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by agent_lime View Post
    Direct male lineage should keep the haplotypes.
    That's just one line of ancestry (smaller fraction further back you go). Many hear these stories from their mothers. Many learn about it from their fathers, who in turn learnt from their mothers. You get the idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by agent_lime View Post
    Majority of families lie.
    This is the sort of prejudiced view I am trying to counter. You cannot just assume they lie.

    Quote Originally Posted by agent_lime View Post
    Those people are probably only a few million(and I am being generous with this number) .
    Being generous based on what? This is very subjective.

    Quote Originally Posted by agent_lime View Post
    out of the 500 million muslims in South Asia.
    There's no monolithic block called 'South Asian Muslims'. Every group - Pathans, UP Muslims, Mappilas, Bengalis etc. - have different stories of ethnogenesis.
    No Mappila claims ancestry to a Saint who lived in UP. Likewise you don't hear any UP Muslim claiming descent from any Bahmanid ruler.

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     Mandoos (12-29-2018)

  5. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by misanthropy View Post
    Yeah, Iím already on poiís tool as a custom user. Look for misanthropy and misanthropy_brother
    I am not great at this but still took a stab.


    Model Sample Details Fit Map BedouinA Paniya Simulated ASI By DMXX Udegram IA
    1 BedouinA +Paniya +Simulated_ASI_by_DMXX +Udegram_IA Custom:AGUser_misanthropy 1.7749 Open Map 10.83 43.33 6.67 39.17
    2 BedouinA +Paniya +Simulated_ASI_by_DMXX +Udegram_IA Custom:AGUser_misanthropy_brother 2.7568 Open Map 14.17 33.33 6.67 45.83


    Model Sample Details Fit Map Assyrian Paniya Simulated ASI By DMXX Udegram IA
    1 Assyrian +Paniya +Simulated_ASI_by_DMXX +Udegram_IA Custom:AGUser_misanthropy 2.0619 Open Map 10 47.5 5.83 36.67
    2 Assyrian +Paniya +Simulated_ASI_by_DMXX +Udegram_IA Custom:AGUser_misanthropy_brother 3.1997 Open Map 13.33 39.17 5 42.5

    I tried Levant, Assyrian and Chl too but they don't improve fits.

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     misanthropy (12-30-2018)

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    Quote Originally Posted by thejkhan View Post
    Most people are generally very skeptic when they hear a South Asian, Muslim or Hindu, claiming descent from some royal lineage, some popular Hindu sage or Muslim saint. The reasoning goes "how can so many people claim descent from same guy? Most must be fake, except a few."

    It's totally possible.

    Possible, but mostly fake.
    In India milions of people claim to be descendants of the Hashemites.
    They were tested and only 1/10 of them are even general Semites so
    obviously much less of them are Hashemites.

    Let's do some math.

    Assuming each generation is 30 years, a person in his prime in 1400 AD, having 3 children (surviving to adulthood) each generation onward (constant rate) will have 3,486,784,401 descendants today. That's 3.48 billion.
    If you count every ascendant, then in such case everybody
    will be a "descendant" of everybody. It doesn't make sense.
    In addition claimers usualy usurp the descendency through
    prime line, not through multiple brokenesses.

    ... at a rate of 4 surviving adult children per generation, the number will be 1.0995116 Trillion.
    In my family the average was to have 4-5 sons, but on the space of the last six ages, the average
    generation had 1.4-1.425 son. And this is much biggest factor than in the average population, which
    has to have some 1,114 for general country population taking 30 years as average for generation.

    It's OK to be skeptic for the right reason, like lack of evidence of ancestry. But cannot assume a person living centuries ago will have only a handful of living descendents. It's going to be either 0 or more than hundreds of thousands.
    Perfectly can. My forefather has some +/- 3000 descendants. Polish original royal family, which
    was very big family, officialy has zero, but through the ages had hundrets of princes and kings.

    Even if you take unto account genetics, then you can clearly see, that some lineages have only
    a few descendants through thousands of years, another have billions. For example, one of the
    original West and Central european people are C1men. Today, they are only thousands, even if.
    Last edited by Rethel; 12-29-2018 at 08:23 AM.

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     agent_lime (12-29-2018),  Mis (12-29-2018)

  9. #15
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    I ran one with UP Brahmins


    Model Sample Details Fit Map BedouinA Brahmin Uttar Pradesh Paniya Simulated ASI By DMXX
    1 BedouinA +Brahmin_Uttar_Pradesh +Paniya +Simulated_ASI_by_DMXX Custom:AGUser_misanthropy 1.7722 Open Map 10.83 49.17 38.33 1.67
    2 BedouinA +Brahmin_Uttar_Pradesh +Paniya +Simulated_ASI_by_DMXX Custom:AGUser_misanthropy_brother 2.646 Open Map 15.83 54.17 28.33 1.67

    Another with UP Brahmins and Saudis.


    Model Sample Details Fit Map Brahmin Uttar Pradesh Paniya Saudi Simulated ASI By DMXX
    1 Brahmin_Uttar_Pradesh +Paniya +Saudi +Simulated_ASI_by_DMXX Custom:AGUser_misanthropy 1.7771 Open Map 54.17 35 9.17 1.67
    2 Brahmin_Uttar_Pradesh +Paniya +Saudi +Simulated_ASI_by_DMXX Custom:AGUser_misanthropy_brother 2.8743 Open Map 57.5 27.5 13.33 1.67

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     misanthropy (12-30-2018)

  11. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by agent_lime View Post
    I ran one with UP Brahmins
    They are also a good example of fake ancestry.
    Before genetic era, it was always talked, that Bramins,
    Kshatriyas and Vayśyas are the original Aryans. But as
    the genetic research showed, even among Bramins only
    ~40% in average are the originals. The less it shloud be
    among other castas, and so Rajputs have only ~30% of
    the original IE lines. Even with R2 it is less than 50%...
    Last edited by Rethel; 12-29-2018 at 08:35 AM.

  12. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rethel View Post
    They are also a good example of fake ancestry.
    Before genetic era, it was always said, that Bramins,
    Kshatriyas and Wajśyas are original Aryans. As the genetic
    research showed, even among Bramins only ~40% in average
    are the originals. The less it shloud be among other castas,
    and so Rajputs have only 30% of the original IE lines. Even
    with R2 it is still even less than 50%...
    The ethnogenesis of the Indo Aryans comes from the BMAC, Painted Grey Ware, Cemetery H and SWAT valley groups. They mixed into the locals to form the IA groups. I model directly from Udegram IA like grousp.

    They were never a pure Steppe group. The Aryans take ancestry from BMAC, South Asian Hunter Gatherers and Steppe in South Asia. I haven't seen a Brahmin in India claim to be Steppe.


    Model Sample Details Fit Map Paniya Sintashta MLBA Udegram IA
    1 Paniya +Sintashta_MLBA +Udegram_IA Custom:AGUser_agentlime 1.8179 Open Map 0.83 5 94.17


    Model Sample Details Fit Map Barikot IA Paniya Sintashta MLBA Tepe Hissar ChL
    1 Barikot_IA +Paniya +Sintashta_MLBA +Tepe_Hissar_ChL Custom:AGUser_agentlime 2.5943 Open Map 74.17 9.17 10.83 5.83

    Bored I think is a NW Brahmin. Here is his number-


    Model Sample Details Fit Map Paniya Sintashta MLBA Udegram IA
    1 Paniya +Sintashta_MLBA +Udegram_IA Custom:AGUser_bored 2.2273 Open Map 16.67 5 78.33

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     Sapporo (12-29-2018)

  14. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rethel View Post
    Possible, but mostly fake.
    In India milions of people claim to be descendants of the Hashemites.
    They were tested and only 1/10 of them are even general Semites so
    obviously much less of them are Hashemites.
    I'm getting tired of repeating this. The "Syed, Sheikh" thing is a different topic - a continuation of the Varna system upon conversion to Islam, with fake Arab ancestry claims.

    It's different from claiming ancestry from someone who has ACTUALLY been in South Asia - like Sufi Qalandar or Chishti. These guys have real, living South Asian descendants.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rethel View Post

    If you count every ascendant, then in such case everybody
    will be a "descendant" of everybody. It doesn't make sense.
    In addition claimers usualy usurp the descendency through
    prime line, not through multiple brokenesses.
    What exactly is "broken-ness"? We are not talking about inheriting thrones, or male royal line. Simply discussing ancestry to some famous individual through any one of our parents.

    It doesn't make sense? Exactly it doesn't - it doesn't make you special. The point is whether numerous descendants of some famous individual living centuries ago can exist in present time. Some people think it's not possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rethel View Post

    Even if you take unto account genetics, then you can clearly see, that some lineages have only
    a few descendants through thousands of years, another have billions. For example, one of the
    original West and Central european people are C1men. Today, they are only thousands, even if.
    I bet every living European is a descendent of those C1 men. Just that the patrilineal lines are few.

  15. #19
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    More modelling. I got your brother to almost 2 with moderns.


    Model Sample Details Fit Map Gujarati Paniya Saudi Simulated ASI By DMXX
    1 Gujarati +Paniya +Saudi +Simulated_ASI_by_DMXX Custom:AGUser_misanthropy 1.4728 Open Map 74.17 15 10 0.83
    2 Gujarati +Paniya +Saudi +Simulated_ASI_by_DMXX Custom:AGUser_misanthropy_brother 2.4391 Open Map 77.5 9.17 13.33 0



    Model Sample Details Fit Map Eritrean Gujarati Paniya Saudi
    1 Eritrean +Gujarati +Paniya +Saudi Custom:AGUser_misanthropy 1.2738 Open Map 1.67 76.67 14.17 7.5
    2 Eritrean +Gujarati +Paniya +Saudi Custom:AGUser_misanthropy_brother 2.1802 Open Map 2.5 77.5 9.17 10.83

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     misanthropy (12-30-2018)

  17. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by thejkhan View Post
    I was having this conversation with agent_lime in the "misconceptions" thread -- don't want to destroy that thread, so moving it here.



    Most people are generally very skeptic when they hear a South Asian, Muslim or Hindu, claiming descent from some royal lineage, some popular Hindu sage or Muslim saint. The reasoning goes "how can so many people claim descent from same guy? Most must be fake, except a few."

    It's totally possible.

    Let's do some math.

    Assuming each generation is 30 years, a person in his prime in 1400 AD, having 3 children (surviving to adulthood) each generation onward (constant rate) will have 3,486,784,401 descendants today. That's 3.48 billion.

    ... at a rate of 4 surviving adult children per generation, the number will be 1.0995116 Trillion.

    Obviously, population bottlenecks (disease, famine, drought, invasions) ensure it's far less than that.
    I'm sure a small number of South Asian Muslims have foreign ancestry, but you're making it seem as if most Indian Muslims have a foreign ancestor. I don't know much about the rest of India but in Kerala Thangals have confirmed Yemeni ancestry. They claim to be Syeds as well. Most Mappila Muslims however are converted from Thiyyas. A small number of Muslims from poor financial background married off their daughters to rich Arabs(Arabi Kalyanam), so their descendants would have Arab ancestry too. But most Muslims in India are converted from Indian religions.

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     misanthropy (12-29-2018)

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