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Thread: Descent from Royals, Sages, Saints [ South Asia ]

  1. #21
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    If the question is "whether or not" Muslims have foreign ancestry, the answer is likely yes. The only question is "how much" foreign ancestry various groups would have.

    I'm not at all familiar with Muslim history in depth, but it is not illogical to think that (non recently converted) Muslim groups have at least some foreign ancestry considering 1) Muslims (Persian-Turk-Mughal and even Arabs) physically arrived and basically controlled a vast swath of South Asia and ruled as elites for centuries 2) due to lack of caste endogamy, before they started developing clan-like endogamy, any foreign ancestry would have percolated to most historically Muslim groups. More recent converted groups would likely not have this, but historically Muslim groups, especially in the West/Northwest would have had some foreign(medieval West and Central Asian) ancestry. People like misanthrophy, with documented history, regardless of which part of South Asia they reside in, have it at relatively large numbers. One sure-fire way to tell if a group has at least some foriegn ancestry is to look at the unipaternals. If (modern) WestAsian YDNA in a group reaches noticeable levels, there is no doubt at least some ancestry must be foreign.

    Speaking of unipaternals, do we have a breakdown by Muslim groups their haplogroup frequencies?
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  3. #22
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    UP muslims foreign ancestry claims is pretty legit in my opinion looking dozens of samples on HarappaDNA. Also not long ago I found Punjab? baig's kits and they too looked to have legit turkic ancestry from results. Now I tend to be more open minded about people claims unlike before.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thejkhan View Post
    through any one of our parents.
    So, in that way, you can claim anything => it doesn't make any sense, as, if you get some 500-1000 years back, you can claim to be a descendant of anyone who have at least one known general descendant today. So, what?

    Animals live like that being just single individuals of some billion-large-crowd - but people are not animals.

    It doesn't make sense? Exactly it doesn't - it doesn't make you special.
    Everyone is special, as everyone is a descendant of some particular progenitor who established his family.
    Some people are a members of some category of families defined by different groups as royal, noble, patriciate,
    viking, prussian, whatever. Does make sense. Otherwise, everybody will be noone and the talk about ancestry
    would not have sense. If you can;t differenciate the family and the ancestors from cognates, ascendants and
    neighbours, then you're lacking a basic cultural ideas and are not aware of historical and everyday reality.

    I bet every living European is a descendent of those C1 men. Just that the patrilineal lines are few.
    Congratulations, you just discovered America! Now is the time for Australia. Take your time.
    Last edited by Rethel; 12-29-2018 at 11:09 PM.

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  7. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kart View Post
    I'm sure a small number of South Asian Muslims have foreign ancestry,
    South Asian Muslims are not one population. We have to discuss each separately. It's like grouping Knanaya and Meghalaya Christians into 'South Asian Christian' group. Would't make sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kart View Post
    but you're making it seem as if most Indian Muslims have a foreign ancestor.
    Apologies if it sounds like that. That was not my intention.

    But there's a deep seated prejudice against any Muslim claiming ancestry from Muslim royals or Saints in South Asia.

    It's almost a taboo. Look at all the reaction in this thread.

    I just showed some calculation in the opening thread to prove that it's perfectly possible for hundreds of thousands of people to descend from some famous historical figure living centuries ago without having any traces of his dna left.

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  9. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by thejkhan View Post
    South Asian Muslims are not one population. We have to discuss each separately. It's like grouping Knanaya and Meghalaya Christians into 'South Asian Christian' group. Would't make sense.



    Apologies if it sounds like that. That was not my intention.

    But there's a deep seated prejudice against any Muslim claiming ancestry from Muslim royals or Saints in South Asia.

    It's almost a taboo. Look at all the reaction in this thread.

    I just showed some calculation in the opening thread to prove that it's perfectly possible for hundreds of thousands of people to descend from some famous historical figure living centuries ago without having any traces of his dna left.
    Where did you prove that no traces would be left? I'm curious. Because maybe on autosomal calculators it won't show up after so many generations, but autosomal calculators only test very small percentage of your SNPs tested by the company, which in reality is a small part of your genome.

    Again I get east european matches based on shared steppe 3-4k years ago, 600-700 years ago is not far. If it's there it'll show up, as long as you dig deep.

    I'm not attacking you, but trying to understand your logic. We've tools to find out connections, if that doesn't show any signal, then most likely claim is wrong.

    My family migrated, and for long time I believed they mixed with neighbors, but after the test I found out they didn't. It's the truth and I accepted it.

    Reminds me of how some people don't like finding out their paternal Halogroup is H (Don't know the clad) . Because it's South Asian marker and shows your paternal founder was AASI individual. It's like hating yourself. Just like how there's controversial topic in middle east about paternal halogroup of Prophet and so many people claim paternal ancestry from him. But when they find out their Halo is not J, they try to justify it. Nothing wrong in accepting in the end if claim turns out to be false.

    Misanthropy family claims yemeni origins, he took the test and it turns out to be legit, both paternal halogroup and elevated east african/gulf admixture.
    Last edited by MonkeyDLuffy; 12-30-2018 at 12:41 AM.
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  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by thejkhan View Post
    I'm getting tired of repeating this. The "Syed, Sheikh" thing is a different topic - a continuation of the Varna system upon conversion to Islam, with fake Arab ancestry claims.
    Quote Originally Posted by thejkhan View Post

    It's different from claiming ancestry from someone who has ACTUALLY been in South Asia -

    Quote Originally Posted by thejkhan View Post
    like Sufi Qalandar or Chishti. These guys have real, living South Asian descendants.




    I'm not going to delve too much into this conversation, but I think it's important to point out that many people claiming Chishti or Naqshbandi lineage are doing so in a scholarly/spiritual/bayat sense. They aren't claiming to be the direct blood descendant of such-and-such, rather they are saying they are descended from a person who received ijaza or gave bayat to such-and-such who did to such-and-such...etc... all the way to the Sufi Qalandar. The surname is representing an unbroken bayat tradition for a lot of people, not a bloodline.

    [EDIT: for those unfamiliar with the terms used. Bayat/Bayah means "oath"; Ijazat/Ijazah means "permission". In the context of what is being described above, a disciple may give an "oath"/bayat to a scholar to follow his teachings and may also receive "permission"/ijazat to teach it to others. As I understand it, even the trees of the Sufi Qalandars are written in this manner. ie. Chishti's tree to Ali (and indirectly Muhammad) is a scholarly tree of bayat/ijazat not one claiming patrilineal descent. A tree of masters/teachers vs. proginators.]

    [DOUBLE EDIT: Disclaimer -- I am not from a family that follows any Sufi order or even leans in that direction, though I suppose most South Asian Muslims have some tangent influence from various tareeqas/orders. So I may be mistaken on the exact aspects of this. I am just regurgitating what I have learned about the topic, I have no personal experience with the exact technicalities of it. Others may be more knowledgeable in this regard.]
    Last edited by khanabadoshi; 12-30-2018 at 02:12 AM. Reason: Clarification of terms used.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MonkeyDLuffy View Post
    Where did you prove that no traces would be left? I'm curious. Because maybe on autosomal calculators it won't show up after so many generations, but autosomal calculators only test very small percentage of your SNPs tested by the company, which in reality is a small part of your genome.
    This can only be solved by a test. In about 10 (or less) generations (300 years) no detectable traces of an exotic ancestry can be found. To prove this we need to find a test subject from South Asia with only 1 foreign ancestor who lived several hundred years ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by MonkeyDLuffy View Post
    Again I get east european matches based on shared steppe 3-4k years ago, 600-700 years ago is not far. If it's there it'll show up, as long as you dig deep.
    That's because most of your ancestors were always Steppe derived. Same with misanthropy and his Yemeni ancestry. I doubt misanthropy had only a single Yemeni ancestor, unless that ancestor is only 2-3 generations apart.
    Last edited by thejkhan; 12-30-2018 at 01:23 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by khanabadoshi View Post


    I'm not going to delve too much into this conversation, but I think it's important to point out that many people claiming Chishti or Naqshbandi lineage are doing so in a scholarly/spiritual/bayat sense. They aren't claiming to be the direct blood descendant of such-and-such, rather they are saying they are descended from a person who received ijaza or gave bayat to such-and-such who did to such-and-such...etc... all the way to the Sufi Qalandar. The surname is representing an unbroken bayat tradition for a lot of people, not a bloodline.
    I am not talking about spiritual successions. I understand these are different things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by khanabadoshi View Post


    I'm not going to delve too much into this conversation, but I think it's important to point out that many people claiming Chishti or Naqshbandi lineage are doing so in a scholarly/spiritual/bayat sense. They aren't claiming to be the direct blood descendant of such-and-such, rather they are saying they are descended from a person who received ijaza or gave bayat to such-and-such who did to such-and-such...etc... all the way to the Sufi Qalandar. The surname is representing an unbroken bayat tradition for a lot of people, not a bloodline.
    True!
    Last edited by noman; 12-30-2018 at 01:43 AM.
    Kashmir

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  18. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by thejkhan View Post
    Would it pick up genetic signature of a foreign ancestor living 600 years ago? If that's someone's only foreign ancestor, they are still going to be 100% South Asian autosomally.
    .
    Considering muslims also have pseudo caste system for marriages, legit ones with foreign ancestry will show something even on gedmatch compared to their immediate neighbours. This is why I didn't believe in claims of punjab awans, abbasis, kiyanis even before I saw their results. For one they are way too deep rooted/pendus culturally in northen/western punjab rural areas to have recent foreign ancestry.

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