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Thread: Who our Ancestors were? Aryan Origin flawed

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by thejkhan View Post
    3 of the Sherpa samples in this study - Kang et al - had mtdna M3d1a1. There must have been some gene flow from neighbouring hybrid ( South Asian + TB ) populations.
    Is M3d1a1 a South Asian M? If not, M is macro haplogroup present throughout Europe(during the Paleolithic) and East Asia. Also, even if it is a South Asian specific marker, its presence among the Sherpas may not mean much when it comes to autosomal admixture. Unilineal markers' frequencies are subject to other factors than the autosomes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by poi View Post
    Is M3d1a1 a South Asian M? If not, M is macro haplogroup present throughout Europe(during the Paleolithic) and East Asia. Also, even if it is a South Asian specific marker, its presence among the Sherpas may not mean much when it comes to autosomal admixture. Unilineal markers' frequencies are subject to other factors than the autosomes.
    M3d is South Asian. M3d1 has also been found in Nepal and New Delhi. M3d1a has been found in Nepal, and among 11 samples of Lao people in South East Asia. M3d1a1 has been found only in Sherpas; rare though.
    I don't know when M3d1a1 split form M3d1a, but considering M3d has a TMRCA of 18000 ybp, the split could not have occurred earlier than late Mesolithic.
    Most likely a result of ATB hunter gatherers taking South Asian wives.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thejkhan View Post
    M3d is South Asian. M3d1 has also been found in Nepal and New Delhi. M3d1a has been found in Nepal, and among 11 samples of Lao people in South East Asia. M3d1a1 has been found only in Sherpas; rare though.
    I don't know when M3d1a1 split form M3d1a, but considering M3d has a TMRCA of 18000 ybp, the split could not have occurred earlier than late Mesolithic.
    Most likely a result of ATB hunter gatherers taking South Asian wives.
    Thanks for the info on M3d. What you say about South Asian wives looks to be true for IranN farmers, Steppe pastoralists, AA farmers, and even those ATB highlanders. Something about dem South Asian wives huh, good wife material lol. Regarding the ATBs' autosomal makeup, it could still be that they're ATB despite South Asian geneflow from 10,000+ years ago. Perhaps AASI in South Asia split way before the South Asian M made it into ATBs, so ATBs (for this purpose) don't have South Asian that South Asians have, but from an earlier times. I'm guessing, obviously, but I don't think Cole et al 2017 would have said that Sherpas(focus of the study) did not have South Asian geneflow if Sherpas shared ancestry with South Asians from the "proper" ASI/AASI that made up the actual genome from the "Indian cline". Hopefully, I'm not totally off.
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    Quote Originally Posted by poi View Post
    Thanks for the info on M3d. What you say about South Asian wives looks to be true for IranN farmers, Steppe pastoralists, AA farmers, and even those ATB highlanders. Something about dem South Asian wives huh, good wife material lol. Regarding the ATBs' autosomal makeup, it could still be that they're ATB despite South Asian geneflow from 10,000+ years ago. Perhaps AASI in South Asia split way before the South Asian M made it into ATBs, so ATBs (for this purpose) don't have South Asian that South Asians have, but from an earlier times. I'm guessing, obviously, but I don't think Cole et al 2017 would have said that Sherpas(focus of the study) did not have South Asian geneflow if Sherpas shared ancestry with South Asians from the "proper" ASI/AASI that made up the actual genome from the "Indian cline". Hopefully, I'm not totally off.
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    Quote Originally Posted by poi View Post
    ...Steppe pastoralists ...
    Didn't the so steppe in Swat show up only on the mtDNA side?

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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    Didn't the so steppe in Swat show up only on the mtDNA side?
    I was being a bit facetious. As far as we can tell right now (looking at the aDNA dug up so far), given the presence of Steppe mtDNA and lack of Steppe Y-DNA in early IronAge Swat Valley IndoAryans, it could very well be the "Steppe pastoralists" were women who taught "Vedic culture" to their yDna (E/H/J/L) sons and the R men swept in late and took over. Sounds a bit preposterous, but until we find early steppe Y(particularly R1a) in South Asia, female diffused Vedic/IndoAryan culture/language cannot be ruled out. Sanskrit being the "Mother tongue" lol

    Last edited by poi; 01-02-2019 at 05:28 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by poi View Post
    I was being a bit facetious. As far as we can tell right now (looking at the aDNA dug up so far), given the presence of Steppe mtDNA and lack of Steppe Y-DNA in early IronAge Swat Valley IndoAryans, it could very well be the "Steppe pastoralists" were women who taught "Vedic culture" to their yDna (E/H/J/L) sons and the R men swept in late and took over. Sounds a bit preposterous, but until we find early steppe Y(particularly R1a) in South Asia, female diffused Vedic/IndoAryan culture/language cannot be ruled out. Sanskrit being the "Mother tongue" lol

    We cannot rule the cremation being reason for no R1a so far. It was most likely introduced by R1a population and probably the ones who followed at that time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MonkeyDLuffy View Post
    We cannot rule the cremation being reason for no R1a so far. It was most likely introduced by R1a population and probably the ones who followed at that time.
    The Andronovo practiced some cremation too.

    “Cremation dominates in the Urals; in central and northern Kazakhstan the cemeteries are bi-ritual; in eastern Kazakhstan and south Siberia, inhumation prevails; children are mainly inhumed.” https://books.google.com/books?id=x5...=PA23&lpg=PA23

    But all the inhumations from the Urals to eastern Kazakhstan to south Siberia have turned up R1a1.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MonkeyDLuffy View Post
    We cannot rule the cremation being reason for no R1a so far. It was most likely introduced by R1a population and probably the ones who followed at that time.
    My guesses (probably beating the deadhorse at this point):

    1. Need to wait for more aDNA from BronzeAge/EarlyIronAge South Asia. Still weird that those IndoAryan graves from Swat did not have Steppe Y(R1a) until the late IronAge.
    2. Cremations got rid of ancient R1a DNA... but why would E/H/J/L/Q men be spared? Unless, of course, R1a represented a subculture of cremation(as cremation became the sole way of disposing of the dead in IndoAryan culture).
    3. Females involved in the actual dispersal of Vedic culture. Pretty counterintuitive given the importance of VERY patrilineal Gotras.
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    Quote Originally Posted by poi View Post
    My guesses (probably beating the deadhorse at this point):

    1. Need to wait for more aDNA from BronzeAge/EarlyIronAge South Asia. Still weird that those IndoAryan graves from Swat did not have Steppe Y(R1a) until the late IronAge.
    2. Cremations got rid of ancient R1a DNA... but why would E/H/J/L/Q men be spared? Unless, of course, R1a represented a subculture of cremation(as cremation became the sole way of disposing of the dead in IndoAryan culture).
    3. Females involved in the actual dispersal of Vedic culture. Pretty counterintuitive given the importance of VERY patrilineal Gotras.
    The female graves are elite, no doubt. There is indeed a phase seen where the mother's line (apparently) is given prominence.
    For example the first historical mention of parasar is via (again apparently) a maternal line - parasariputra
    Nagari Epigraph of Parasariputra Gajayana http://agora.regione.piemonte.it/bib...i-epigraph-of/

    We have all over north and west India chiefs following their mother's line - Gautamiputra, Vasisthiputra, etc.

    While the Buddh is also known as Gautam, it is possible that the latter was a matronymic as it his mother who is Maya Gotami.
    "Gotamī was her gotta name"
    http://www.palikanon.com/english/pal...ati_gotami.htm

    The Brahmans & Upanishads circa 1200-600BC are transmitted by teachers who list their matronyms.
    https://books.google.com/books?id=a4rccspy46sC&pg=PA83
    https://books.google.com/books?id=Iz8LAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA224
    Last edited by parasar; 01-02-2019 at 07:29 PM.

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