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Thread: Who our Ancestors were? Aryan Origin flawed

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    The female graves are elite, no doubt. There is indeed a phase seen where the mother's line (apparently) is given prominence.
    For example the first historical mention of parasar is via (again apparently) a maternal line - parasariputra
    Nagari Epigraph of Parasariputra Gajayana http://agora.regione.piemonte.it/bib...i-epigraph-of/

    We have all over north and west India chiefs following their mother's line - Gautamiputra, Vasisthiputra, etc.

    While the Buddh is also known as Gautam, it is possible that the latter was a matronymic as it his mother who is Maya Gotami.
    "Gotamī was her gotta name"
    http://www.palikanon.com/english/pal...ati_gotami.htm

    The Brahmans & Upanishads circa 1200-600BC are transmitted by teachers who list their matronyms.
    https://books.google.com/books?id=a4rccspy46sC&pg=PA83
    https://books.google.com/books?id=Iz8LAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA224
    What is the scholarly opinion on this? Is this brushed aside as "respect for mother but still a very patriarchal society"? I mean the whole society structured was around male lineage(gotra, females leaving their childhood homes to be with the husband, etc).
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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by poi View Post
    What is the scholarly opinion on this? Is this brushed aside as "respect for mother but still a very patriarchal society"? I mean the whole society structured was around male lineage(gotra, females leaving their childhood homes to be with the husband, etc).
    It probably is due to the fact that kings and many other were practicing polygamy, so their was a need to provide the information about the mother of the child.

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  5. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by poi View Post
    What is the scholarly opinion on this? Is this brushed aside as "respect for mother but still a very patriarchal society"? I mean the whole society structured was around male lineage(gotra, females leaving their childhood homes to be with the husband, etc).
    For the late BC and early AD a theory was that the Greek-Shak invasions shook the patrilines so much that authentic lineage was reliable only maternally.
    "It is really remarkable how in Sunga times the mothers come to the fore ... it seems as if a ruler without a mother from a traditional brahmin family was lacking something ... mandatory to show they were born from a brahmin mother."
    https://books.google.com/books?id=efaOR_-YsIcC&pg=PA148
    https://books.google.com/books?id=efaOR_-YsIcC&pg=PA149

    Or perhaps pride of brahmin ancestry on mother's side too.
    https://books.google.com/books?id=tlbxHiSGczYC&pg=PA30

    I have not seen theories for the end of the Rg Vedic period, as to why the change occurred then among the Brahman teachers.
    Some think it is conventional, i.e., as the wife has the same gotr as her husband upon marriage, it is really only the father's gotr that the son carries.
    https://books.google.com/books?id=396vCQAAQBAJ&pg=PA223
    Last edited by parasar; 01-02-2019 at 10:37 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thejkhan View Post
    M3d is South Asian. M3d1 has also been found in Nepal and New Delhi. M3d1a has been found in Nepal, and among 11 samples of Lao people in South East Asia. M3d1a1 has been found only in Sherpas; rare though.
    I don't know when M3d1a1 split form M3d1a, but considering M3d has a TMRCA of 18000 ybp, the split could not have occurred earlier than late Mesolithic.
    Most likely a result of ATB hunter gatherers taking South Asian wives.
    I'm M3d1

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kart View Post
    I'm M3d1
    The only one in this entire forum. You must feel special, lol.

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  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by thejkhan View Post
    The only one in this entire forum. You must feel special, lol.
    Haha yes

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    Quote Originally Posted by poi View Post
    I was being a bit facetious. As far as we can tell right now (looking at the aDNA dug up so far), given the presence of Steppe mtDNA and lack of Steppe Y-DNA in early IronAge Swat Valley IndoAryans, it could very well be the "Steppe pastoralists" were women who taught "Vedic culture" to their yDna (E/H/J/L) sons and the R men swept in late and took over. Sounds a bit preposterous, but until we find early steppe Y(particularly R1a) in South Asia, female diffused Vedic/IndoAryan culture/language cannot be ruled out. Sanskrit being the "Mother tongue" lol

    They didn't toke over completely, I'm H1a and I can assure you there likely kammis who have R1a in our area.

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    Quote Originally Posted by poi View Post
    My guesses (probably beating the deadhorse at this point):

    1. Need to wait for more aDNA from BronzeAge/EarlyIronAge South Asia. Still weird that those IndoAryan graves from Swat did not have Steppe Y(R1a) until the late IronAge.
    2. Cremations got rid of ancient R1a DNA... but why would E/H/J/L/Q men be spared? Unless, of course, R1a represented a subculture of cremation(as cremation became the sole way of disposing of the dead in IndoAryan culture).
    3. Females involved in the actual dispersal of Vedic culture. Pretty counterintuitive given the importance of VERY patrilineal Gotras.
    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    The female graves are elite, no doubt. There is indeed a phase seen where the mother's line (apparently) is given prominence.
    For example the first historical mention of parasar is via (again apparently) a maternal line - parasariputra
    Nagari Epigraph of Parasariputra Gajayana http://agora.regione.piemonte.it/bib...i-epigraph-of/

    We have all over north and west India chiefs following their mother's line - Gautamiputra, Vasisthiputra, etc.

    While the Buddh is also known as Gautam, it is possible that the latter was a matronymic as it his mother who is Maya Gotami.
    "Gotamī was her gotta name"
    http://www.palikanon.com/english/pal...ati_gotami.htm

    The Brahmans & Upanishads circa 1200-600BC are transmitted by teachers who list their matronyms.
    https://books.google.com/books?id=a4rccspy46sC&pg=PA83
    https://books.google.com/books?id=Iz8LAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA224
    Quote Originally Posted by bol_nat View Post
    They didn't toke over completely, I'm H1a and I can assure you there likely kammis who have R1a in our area.
    The discussion has become very interesting and the horses of imaginations/theories are on the gallop. I will contribute my opinion as under :

    It is very difficult to allocate /categorize ethnicities/castes/clans to a particular Haplogroup in South Asian Contest. Almost every caste /ethnic group has a mix of L, H, R, J and so on. Too many uncertainties and the lack of solid factual evidence. Most of them are theoretical and based on very few available samples. For Instance, this very assumption that Aryans of India are R1A, O really ? then how come Kalash people who by many are considered as isolated pure Aryans have the following Y DNA composition :

    Genetic analysis of Y-chromosome DNA (Y-DNA) by Firasat et al. (2007) on Kalash individuals found high and diverse frequencies of these Y-DNA Haplogroups: L3a (22.7%), H1* (20.5%), R1a (18.2%), G (18.2%), J2 (9.1%), R* (6.8%), R1* (2.3%), and L* (2.3%).

    Source : As, I said it is next to impossible to identify that : Aryans = This DNA, Dalits = that DNA etc. etc.

    Most of these studies are based on just assumptions for instance lets say that they discover ancient remains at Harappa sites ( 5-7 bodies). First of all the sample size is small, plus what is the certainty/confidence level that these were indeed indigenous to Harrapa and not some traveller/prisoner or trader that died there.

    Example , I live in Canada as a south Asian. I die and my body gets preserved by a natural process. 1000 years later, the new generation find my remains and do a DNA test and conclude that the Canadians were all my YDNA. Faulty assumption eh?
    Last edited by Saad2016; 01-03-2019 at 04:13 PM.

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  16. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saad2016 View Post
    The discussion has become very interesting and the horses of imaginations/theories are on the gallop. I will contribute my opinion as under :

    It is very difficult to allocate /categorize ethnicities/castes/clans to a particular Haplogroup in South Asian Contest. Almost every caste /ethnic group has a mix of L, H, R, J and so on. Too many uncertainties and the lack of solid factual evidence. Most of them are theoretical and based on very few available samples. For Instance, this is very assumption that Aryans of India are R1A, O really ? then how come Kalash people who by many are considered as isolated pure Aryans have the following Y DNA composition :

    Genetic analysis of Y-chromosome DNA (Y-DNA) by Firasat et al. (2007) on Kalash individuals found high and diverse frequencies of these Y-DNA Haplogroups: L3a (22.7%), H1* (20.5%), R1a (18.2%), G (18.2%), J2 (9.1%), R* (6.8%), R1* (2.3%), and L* (2.3%).

    Source :

    As, I said it is next to impossible to identify that : Aryans = This DNA, Dalits = that DNA etc. etc.

    Most of these studies are based on just assumptions for instance lets say that they discover ancient remains at Harappa sites ( 5-7 bodies). First of all the sample size is small, plus what is the certainty/confidence level that these were indeed indigenous to Harrapa and not some traveller/prisoner or trader that died there.

    Example , I live in Canada as a south Asian. I die and my body gets preserved by a natural process. 1000 years later, the new generation find my remains and do a DNA test and conclude that the Canadians were all my YDNA. Faulty assumption eh?
    You're bringing this again eh. We know H1a is native to south asia just like we know M mtdna is native to south asia and south east asia. The findings are not based on wild assumptions based on 1 sample that was found randomly. If you die im Canada and your remains are found it'll be easy to tell you were south asian based on your admixture and carbon isotopes in your bones.

    The previous thread you started on this topic, a lot of users posted scienctific papers on ydna and how they're found and how things are concluded. Seems like you didn't read any of them.

    We know they people belonged to Harappa because of their admixture. Because the carbon isotopes in their bones which can pretty much pin point the region one was born in and lived their whole life. If the person scored like a 100% WHG on harappa site, we'll know it didn't belong there. The samples like BA1, BA2, BA3 or Saidu sharif and other swat valley samples have same genetic base components with varying degrees of %ages. Kalash are not indo aryans, they get so much attention because they're really isolated hence preserved their admixture for a long period. This is the same reason onge got so much attention and sometimes get mistaken for AASI by misinformed people on anthro forums.

    H1a strain ia found only in subcontinent and nearby regions, which is solid proof it belongs here. R, G, E, L, J and their subclades are found in vast places with frequencies higher in certain places, which gives us a clear path how they migrated. And before you say it's based on 1-2 samples, no.

    Maybe it bothers you that H1a is native to SA, and some users like to mock it as Dalit ydna. Which is wrong because the population is so mixed in the subcontinent, Halogroups are all over the place now.
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  18. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by MonkeyDLuffy View Post
    You're bringing this again eh. We know H1a is native to south asia just like we know M mtdna is native to south asia and south east asia. The findings are not based on wild assumptions based on 1 sample that was found randomly. If you die im Canada and your remains are found it'll be easy to tell you were south asian based on your admixture and carbon isotopes in your bones.

    The previous thread you started on this topic, a lot of users posted scienctific papers on ydna and how they're found and how things are concluded. Seems like you didn't read any of them.

    We know they people belonged to Harappa because of their admixture. Because the carbon isotopes in their bones which can pretty much pin point the region one was born in and lived their whole life. If the person scored like a 100% WHG on harappa site, we'll know it didn't belong there. The samples like BA1, BA2, BA3 or Saidu sharif and other swat valley samples have same genetic base components with varying degrees of %ages. Kalash are not indo aryans, they get so much attention because they're really isolated hence preserved their admixture for a long period. This is the same reason onge got so much attention and sometimes get mistaken for AASI by misinformed people on anthro forums.

    H1a strain ia found only in subcontinent and nearby regions, which is solid proof it belongs here. R, G, E, L, J and their subclades are found in vast places with frequencies higher in certain places, which gives us a clear path how they migrated. And before you say it's based on 1-2 samples, no.

    Maybe it bothers you that H1a is native to SA, and some users like to mock it as Dalit ydna. Which is wrong because the population is so mixed in the subcontinent, Halogroups are all over the place now.
    You have either avoided my main argument or perhaps didn't get it. Let me rephrase :

    All ethnic groups/clans of south Asia for instance Gujjars, Dalits, Brahmans and ethnic entities are a mix of different Haplogroups. To further illustrate my point I presented the YDNA mix for Kalash People who by many are considered to be pure Aryans isolated in small communities and with not much genetic mingling.
    Genetic analysis of Y-chromosome DNA (Y-DNA) by Firasat et al. (2007) on Kalash individuals found high and diverse frequencies of these Y-DNA Haplogroups: L3a (22.7%), H1* (20.5%), R1a (18.2%), G (18.2%), J2 (9.1%), R* (6.8%), R1* (2.3%), and L* (2.3%).
    The idea is to start a discussion and not compel you or get compelled to accept each other's perspective. It is not against you in anyway. It is called difference of " Opinion" and " Perspective.
    Last edited by Saad2016; 01-03-2019 at 04:32 PM.

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