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Thread: Changing the way we think about Cyprus genetically is necessary. Here's why.

  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrewid View Post
    Can you please plot your Global25 findings on this thread so we can have a comparison?
    I have not gotten anymore Greek Cypriot coordinates yet unfortunately but have managed to get some from the Peloponnese, Macedonia, Karpathos (Michalis father) as well as other Greeks of mixed Macedonian and Pontic/Anatolian heritage. Here are a few PCA diagrams I mocked up that may be of interest:

    Greek:

    GreekPCA.png

    Mediterranean Continuum:

    Mediterranean Continuum.png

    Southern Europe-Anatolia-Caucasus-Central Asia-Levant-Arabia:

    Mediterranean-West Asia-Levant-Arabia.png

    Greek-Italian-Jewish:

    Greek-Italian-Jewish.png

    Davidski European PCA with Greek_Cyprus, Greek_Karpathos and Romaniote_Jew added:

    European PCA.pdf
    Last edited by LTG; 01-10-2019 at 07:01 PM.

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  3. #122
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    Let's get the Sicilians on that plot with the Cypriots and then we're pretty much complete as far as islanders go. Maybe I can send Cretans also.

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  5. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by LTG View Post
    That is completely fair and I thank you for taking the time to clear that up. My original post may have come across rather hostile based on how Michalis perceived it, but I assure you we are on the same page and I did not mean for it to come across that way. It has understandably been quite irritating to see the many questionable things said over the years regarding the Greek community on the island, mostly them being nothing more than Levantine, Arab and West Asian migrants who are Greek in name only. Considering all of the blood that has been shed to maintain that Greek identity on the island all the way from the Late Bronze Age until recent times, I would be lying if I did not take some offence when people say these sort of things. Thankfully, we now know that this is not the case. I was happy to see that Andrew and his family joined the cluster of other Mediterranean groups such as Sicilians, Cretans, Maltese and specifically the Romaniote/Sephardic Jews as well as having high correlations with Aegean islanders and the regions of former Magna Graecia. Overall, with the recent leaps and bounds taken regrading the genetics of Cypriots both Greek and Turkish (K15, G25, Alkaevli), I guess I was looking for as conclusive PCA as possible to prove beyond reasonable doubt that Greek Cypriots do indeed harbour genuine Greek ancestry and share a lot with other Greeks populations mainly from the Aegean. This subject to me is what the whole 'Khazar' shambles is to you in a lot ways, so I can get quite passionate about it.

    As for the other kits, the member who posted the original PCA appears to be a Turkish Cypriot individual over at The Apricity. Sikeliot should have little trouble getting them considering he is an admin there. Interestingly, both sets of Cypriots will reach roughly 45 samples each when all is said and done - so pretty conclusive stuff.
    You can see from my post #109 above, that we are in agreement about the attempt by some to somehow dehellenize Greek Cypriots.

    I'm not particularly here referring to various genetics and political fora, but to an orchestrated plan by the British Colonial authorities from 1878 when they arrived. The first British Governor of Cyprus, was the austere military figure, Sir Garnet Wolseley. In my personal archive, I have private correspondence from him in which he basically says "if we are to maintain control of Cyprus, we must destroy the Hellenic element". No wonder the British kept away from classical Greek style architecture in Cyprus, which they were so fond of erecting in other colonies. For the first few years after the occupation started, they even refused to allow Greek as an official language. Greek Cypriots were subject to legislation, and court procedures, in a totally alien language. No wonder the Greeks on the island turned against their new colonial masters within a very short period.

    So LTG is right, for many Greek Cypriots this is a very sore point and one which has been accentuated by historical experience.

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  7. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrewid View Post
    You can see from my post #109 above, that we are in agreement about the attempt by some to somehow dehellenize Greek Cypriots.

    I'm not particularly here referring to various genetics and political fora, but to an orchestrated plan by the British Colonial authorities from 1878 when they arrived. The first British Governor of Cyprus, was the austere military figure, Sir Garnet Wolseley. In my personal archive, I have private correspondence from him in which he basically says "if we are to maintain control of Cyprus, we must destroy the Hellenic element". No wonder the British kept away from classical Greek style architecture in Cyprus, which they were so fond of erecting in other colonies. For the first few years after the occupation started, they even refused to allow Greek as an official language. Greek Cypriots were subject to legislation, and court procedures, in a totally alien language. No wonder the Greeks on the island turned against their new colonial masters within a very short period.

    So LTG is right, for many Greek Cypriots this is a very sore point and one which has been accentuated by historical experience.
    Yea but someone gets the impression that this British policy yields fruit till todays, I mean within Cyprus. But that's politics. =)

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  9. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chatzianastasoglou View Post
    Yea but someone gets the impression that this British policy yields fruit till todays, I mean within Cyprus. But that's politics. =)
    Oh damage was undoubtedly done but it's the experience of 1974 that really created a fertile environment for certain sections to develop what we call a neocypriot identity. However, that movement never really took off. Now the differences are between the 'Elladokentriki', who see Greece as holding sociopolitical hegemony, and the 'Kyprokentriki' who believe in a completely equal Hellenic entity in Cyprus. And there is also a growing enotist curent, which we can see in ELAM's growing popularity, which scored 11% in a recent poll.

    Those who deny their Greekness at all are a very small minority. Even AKEL (the communist party), which held the Presidency for a period, was careful not to deny our ethnic identity. All other parties, accentuate Greekness much more because it doesn't conflict with their own ideological world view. AKEL doesn't wrap itself up in Greek flags in the way its sister-party in Greece doesn't either. What AKEL and its allies are trying to achieve is a strong Cypriot civic identity (where Greek identity plays second fiddle) in order to facilitate reunification. I personally think this movement, even if well intentioned, is naive and counterproductive. If Tito couldn't create Yugoslav man amongst fellow Slavs, I hardly think Cypriot man stands any chance whatsoever. And whatever happened to Soviet man?
    Last edited by Andrewid; 01-10-2019 at 10:33 PM.

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  11. #126
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    It's actually interesting just how far Greek Cypriots plot from the Levant, and now Sarno et al makes much more sense which placed them near Sicilians, Calabrians, and Crete/Dodecanese. People questioned that study when it came out for putting Cypriots with other islanders, in fact.

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  13. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrewid View Post
    Oh damage was undoubtedly done but it's the experience of 1974 that really created a fertile environment for certain sections to develop what we call a neocypriot identity. However, that movement never really took off. Now the differences are between the 'Elladokentriki', who see Greece as holding sociopolitical hegemony, and the 'Kyprokentriki' who believe in a completely equal Hellenic entity in Cyprus. And there is also a growing enotist curent, which we can see in ELAM's growing popularity, which scored 11% in a recent poll.

    Those who deny their Greekness at all are a very small minority. Even AKEL (the communist party), which held the Presidency for a period, was careful not to deny our ethnic identity. All other parties, accentuate Greekness much more because it doesn't conflict with their own ideological world view. AKEL doesn't wrap itself up in Greek flags in the way its sister-party in Greece doesn't either. What AKEL and its allies are trying to achieve is a strong Cypriot civic identity (where Greek identity plays second fiddle) in order to facilitate reunification. I personally think this movement, even if well intentioned, is naive and counterproductive. If Tito couldn't create Yugoslav man amongst fellow Slavs, I hardly think Cypriot man stands any chance whatsoever. And whatever happened to Soviet man?
    You are totally right. The "normal" development would be Enosis, Cyprus is a Greek island since antiquity. If the Greeks' and Turks' numbers were reverse, it would be part of Turkey today without any discussion whatsoever. But there are two aspects which prohibit such development: the most important is geography and the second (I think in the end much less important but not negligible) is the shabbiness of the Greek state.

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  15. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chatzianastasoglou View Post
    If the Greeks' and Turks' numbers were reverse, it would be part of Turkey today without any discussion whatsoever.
    This is really the long and short of it. People can have their negative opinions of Turkey and it's Neo-Ottoman tendencies, but the reality is that they get what they want. The Turks have always understood that on a fundamental level the only real thing that matters is looking after and strengthening their own interests. They act and then prepare for the consequences later. This is why they have been so successful in establishing a strong and unified Turk identity across the entire peninsula. I was in Istanbul earlier this year and any Greek that dreams of that great city being in Roman hands again is fooling themselves; it is littered with Ottoman iconography and the people are fiercely proud and patriotic. The Greeks on the other hand remain too liberal for their own good. This has led to financial and militaristic subjugation by the more predatory forces to both the west and east respectively. History repeating itself once again.
    Last edited by LTG; 01-11-2019 at 02:17 PM.

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  17. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by LTG View Post
    This is really the long and short of it. People can have their negative opinions of Turkey and it's Neo-Ottoman tendencies, but the reality is that they get what they want. The Turks have always understood that on a fundamental level the only real thing that matters is looking after and strengthening their own interests. They act and then prepare for the consequences later. This is why they have been so successful in establishing a strong and unified Turk identity across the entire peninsula. I was in Istanbul earlier this year and any Greek that dreams of that great city being in Roman hands again is fooling themselves; it is littered with Ottoman iconography and the people are fiercely proud and patriotic. The Greeks on the other hand remain too liberal and arrogant for their own good. This has led to financial and militaristic subjugation by the more predatory forces to both the west and east respectively. History repeating itself once again.
    This isn't really the right thread or forum for such discussion, but as an outsider I can't but admit that Atatürk achieved precisely what he intended. He did achieve the creation of a Turkish nation and state out of the embers of a burning Ottoman Empire. The price or cost for 'unassimilable' minorities is another matter. Greek diplomatic practice, in contrast, has usually lacked a carefully crafted methodology or long term strategy.

    As for Greek arrogance, we have as much of that as olive oil and feta cheese. That's why being fixated to a 'glorious' past can be counter-productive. The Greeks have a word for it: 'προγονοπληξία' or ancestor worship.
    Last edited by Andrewid; 01-11-2019 at 01:53 PM.

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  19. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrewid View Post
    This isn't really the right thread or forum for such discussion
    Agreed.
    Last edited by LTG; 01-11-2019 at 02:42 PM.

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