Page 12 of 21 FirstFirst ... 21011121314 ... LastLast
Results 111 to 120 of 202

Thread: Changing the way we think about Cyprus genetically is necessary. Here's why.

  1. #111
    Registered Users
    Posts
    364
    Sex
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Ethnicity
    English & Greek
    Nationality
    British
    Y-DNA
    J2-L397
    mtDNA
    H2a2a1

    United Kingdom England Greece Cyprus
    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    I must say that the number of verified Greek Cypriots I have is lower than the original amount which was plotted on the base PCA Sikeliot gave me - around 45 vs. 25 - almost double
    This PCA alone serves more as a reinforcement of the idea that Greek Cypriots are indeed a non-Greek Levantine population. It also simultaneously acts as a rather good advert for a stronger Turkish identity in the north.

    I have no idea why you excluded them but it goes without saying that the original Greek and Turkish samples should be included in the PCA. The representation of both ethnic groups should be maximised, especially considering a lot of the Greeks clustered much closer to the Dodecanese in the original than they do on this one. The Greek average would likely fall quite a bit closer to Aegean populations than it does here for that reason. There exists a unique opportunity to put this myth to bed for good. It should not be wasted.

    Greek-Turkish Cypriots.png

  2. The Following User Says Thank You to LTG For This Useful Post:

     Adam.Krauze (01-10-2019)

  3. #112
    Registered Users
    Posts
    309
    Sex
    Location
    Central Florida
    Ethnicity
    Greek
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA
    J-L26 (J2a1)
    mtDNA
    J1b1a

    Greece United States of America
    Quote Originally Posted by LTG View Post
    This PCA alone serves more as a reinforcement of the idea that Greek Cypriots are indeed a non-Greek Levantine population. It also simultaneously acts as a rather good advert for a stronger Turkish identity in the north.

    I have no idea why you excluded them but it goes without saying that the original Greek and Turkish samples should be included in the PCA. The representation of both ethnic groups should be maximised, especially considering a lot of the Greeks clustered much closer to the Dodecanese in the original than they do on this one. The Greek average would likely fall quite a bit closer to Aegean populations than it does here for that reason. There exists a unique opportunity to put this myth to bed for good. It should not be wasted.

    Greek-Turkish Cypriots.png
    Uh, what? Sorry, man, but you often come across as unhealthily paranoid about how Hellenes are portrayed. Erik's PCA is perfectly fine and gets the point across quite nicely. It shows that Greek Cypriots are not identical to Turkish Cypriots, but the populations do overlap, and neither one qualifies as Levantine.

    That said, I actually would like to see some real Levantines make an appearance on the next PCA (i.e., the Alawites, the Melkites, etc.-- kits I know Erik has), if just to see how close or far they plot to these new Cypriot samples.
    Last edited by Michalis Moriopoulos; 01-09-2019 at 11:42 PM.
    Ελευθερία ή θάνατος.

  4. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Michalis Moriopoulos For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (01-10-2019),  Andrewid (01-10-2019),  Erikl86 (01-10-2019),  Power77 (01-13-2019)

  5. #113
    Registered Users
    Posts
    364
    Sex
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Ethnicity
    English & Greek
    Nationality
    British
    Y-DNA
    J2-L397
    mtDNA
    H2a2a1

    United Kingdom England Greece Cyprus
    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    Uh, what? Sorry, man, but you often come across as unhealthily paranoid about how Hellenes are portrayed. Erik's PCA is perfectly fine and gets the point across quite nicely. It shows that Greek Cypriots are not identical to Turkish Cypriots, but the populations do overlap, and neither one qualifies as Levantine.

    That said, I actually would like to see some real Levantines make an appearance on the next PCA (i.e., the Alawites, the Melkites, etc.-- kits I know Erik has), if just to see how close or far they plot to these new Cypriot samples.
    Greek Cypriots have been portrayed as something that they are not for years across this entire 'anthrosphere' to the point most of them are labelled incorrectly even by commercial testing companies. I have been saying for some time now that the Greek and Turkish populations from Cyprus differ genetically even when most people said they were the same entity. Now that we have Greek Cypriots in the Global 25 and K15 I would be lying if I said I did not feel somewhat vindicated (I remember trying to explain the flawed concept of the 'Cypriot' label in the Global 25 to you, for example). They cluster roughly where I imagined they would. My request was not born out of 'unhealthy paranoia' regarding Hellenes, but rather because Greek Cypriot results are not too common to my eye and considering most of the original 20 samples are informative and show clearer pulls to the Aegean it is reasonable to want to see the plot with all of the Greek samples on rather than half of them. This is the only way to gauge the true averages and divergence of the Greek and Turkish populations on the island.

    Is any of what I just said unreasonable to you?

  6. #114
    Gold Member Class
    Posts
    1,730
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Jewish (Ashkenazi)
    Y-DNA
    Q-YP3924 (Q-M378)
    mtDNA
    K1a1b1a

    Israel
    Quote Originally Posted by LTG View Post

    I have no idea why you excluded them but it goes without saying that the original Greek and Turkish samples should be included in the PCA. The representation of both ethnic groups should be maximised, especially considering a lot of the Greeks clustered much closer to the Dodecanese in the original than they do on this one.
    I excluded the original PCA I used earlier (given to me by Sikeliot) for two reasons:

    1. Alkaevli was kind enough to provide me with all his Cypriot kits (10 Greek Cypriots + 45 Turkish Cypriots) and asked me if I can post a clean Eurogenes K15-based PCA - so I did.
    2. I can vouch for Alkaevli's kits, the 4 kits I have from Andrewid, and the 11 other full Greek Cypriot kits I have from before (not the academic ones - but people which are known to be fully Cypriots) - as opposed to the already plotted coordinates on Sikeliot's PCA which I don't know where they came from.

    I've already asked Sikeliot for the kits numbers so I can verify to see they are Greek Cypriots - at least but running them on the different GEDmatch calculators or search their kits on One-to-Many to see if they fit other Cypriots. It's not as reliable as Alkaevli's ones which originate from an FTDNA project, or Andrew's kits which are from first hand full Cypriots, or the other 11 which I've gathered over time from Cypriots sharing their kits, but that would at least give me a possibility to see that indeed only full Cypriots were plotted.

    Although as I said in my previous post - the trend already shows with only these 25 Greek Cypriot kits - you can already see that it plots closer to Aegean Greeks and I'm quite certain that as we add more samples (Sikeliot's PCA had ~45 Greek Cypriot samples - much more than I plotted on this new plot) - it would show this trend only becoming more obvious and the average will move even closer to Dodecanese Greeks.
    Check out my Hidden Content
    My Y-DNA: Q-M242 -> Q-L232 -> Q-L275 -> Q-M378 -> Q-Y2016 -> Q-L245 -> Q-FGC1904 -> Q-Y2209 -> Q-Y2225 -> Q-Y2197 -> Q-Y2750 -> Q-YP1004 -> Q-YP3924;
    My mtDNA: K1a1b1a;

    My dad's mtDNA: K2a2a;

  7. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Erikl86 For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (01-10-2019),  Andrewid (01-10-2019),  LTG (01-10-2019),  Power77 (01-13-2019)

  8. #115
    Gold Member Class
    Posts
    1,730
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Jewish (Ashkenazi)
    Y-DNA
    Q-YP3924 (Q-M378)
    mtDNA
    K1a1b1a

    Israel
    I did a small count - currently, about ~35% of the Greek Cypriots (from the 25 I plotted on the new PCA) overlap with the Turkish samples and plot "South East" (aka on the Levantine side of the K15 'Cyprian' average). 65% plot "North West", or towards the other Aegean Greeks. Judging by how the previous ~45 Greek Cypriots plotted on the PCA provided by Sikeliot, and their average, I believe that should we add more samples, the average will tilt on the Aegean side and the average will move even more to the North West.
    Check out my Hidden Content
    My Y-DNA: Q-M242 -> Q-L232 -> Q-L275 -> Q-M378 -> Q-Y2016 -> Q-L245 -> Q-FGC1904 -> Q-Y2209 -> Q-Y2225 -> Q-Y2197 -> Q-Y2750 -> Q-YP1004 -> Q-YP3924;
    My mtDNA: K1a1b1a;

    My dad's mtDNA: K2a2a;

  9. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Erikl86 For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (01-10-2019),  Andrewid (01-10-2019),  Power77 (01-13-2019)

  10. #116
    Registered Users
    Posts
    254
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    I did a small count - currently, about ~35% of the Greek Cypriots (from the 25 I plotted on the new PCA) overlap with the Turkish samples and plot "South East" (aka on the Levantine side of the K15 'Cyprian' average). 65% plot "North West", or towards the other Aegean Greeks. Judging by how the previous ~45 Greek Cypriots plotted on the PCA provided by Sikeliot, and their average, I believe that should we add more samples, the average will tilt on the Aegean side and the average will move even more to the North West.
    Thanks for the new PCA! What I'm observing is that, apart from one Greek Cypriot outlier, the Turkish Cypriots are a more disparate community. They seem, on the one hand, to stretch out to the Levant, and on the other to Anatolia. It is quite heterogeneous compared to the Greek Cypriots. There is undoubtedly an overlap with Greek Cypriots, and we must conclude from this that though Turkish Cypriots are shifted enough to be considered as a separate group genetically, they undoubtedly share a lot of genetic heritage with Greek Cypriots. More so than to any other population. This would be in line with the Heraclides et al. study and other academic research. In other words, despite the arrival of Turkic settlers after 1571, Turkish Cypriots must have mixed with other Cypriot communities, such as Greeks and Maronites, in order to plot where they do. Agreed?


    Can we draft a PCA with the Sikeliot kits added out of interest? i.e whenever you have the time Erik! I am in the process of trying to get further Greek Cypriot verified kit numbers. There is even the possibility of getting a Maronite Cypriot! It would only be one kit to start with, but hopefully in time we can see where they plot. They themselves may have become quite admixed over the centuries. Mihalis makes a valid point about adding the Aegean shifted Levantine Alawites, and say Christian and Druze Lebanese into the mix. I would also like to see how Syrian Jews plot, as well as Cappadocian Greeks. Of course, we also need to see exactly where Dodecanesians and Cretans plot to be able to put things in perspective.

    Does Erik need a Santa-like little helper? Applications are now open
    Last edited by Andrewid; 01-10-2019 at 02:53 PM.

  11. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Andrewid For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (01-10-2019),  Erikl86 (01-10-2019),  Power77 (01-13-2019)

  12. #117
    Registered Users
    Posts
    254
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by LTG View Post
    Greek Cypriots have been portrayed as something that they are not for years across this entire 'anthrosphere' to the point most of them are labelled incorrectly even by commercial testing companies. I have been saying for some time now that the Greek and Turkish populations from Cyprus differ genetically even when most people said they were the same entity. Now that we have Greek Cypriots in the Global 25 and K15 I would be lying if I said I did not feel somewhat vindicated (I remember trying to explain the flawed concept of the 'Cypriot' label in the Global 25 to you, for example). They cluster roughly where I imagined they would. My request was not born out of 'unhealthy paranoia' regarding Hellenes, but rather because Greek Cypriot results are not too common to my eye and considering most of the original 20 samples are informative and show clearer pulls to the Aegean it is reasonable to want to see the plot with all of the Greek samples on rather than half of them. This is the only way to gauge the true averages and divergence of the Greek and Turkish populations on the island.
    Can you please plot your Global25 findings on this thread so we can have a comparison?

  13. The Following User Says Thank You to Andrewid For This Useful Post:

     LTG (01-10-2019)

  14. #118
    Gold Member Class
    Posts
    1,730
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Jewish (Ashkenazi)
    Y-DNA
    Q-YP3924 (Q-M378)
    mtDNA
    K1a1b1a

    Israel
    Quote Originally Posted by Andrewid View Post
    Thanks for the new PCA! What I'm observing is that, apart from one Greek Cypriot outlier, the Turkish Cypriots are a more disparate community. They seem, on the one hand, to stretch out to the Levant, and on the other to Anatolia. It is quite heterogeneous compared to the Greek Cypriots. There is undoubtedly an overlap with Greek Cypriots, and we must conclude from this that though Turkish Cypriots are shifted enough to be considered as a separate group genetically, they undoubtedly share a lot of genetic heritage with Greek Cypriots. More so than to any other population. This would be in line with the Heraclides et al. study and other academic research. In other words, despite the arrival of Turkic settlers after 1571, Turkish Cypriots must have mixed with other Cypriot communities, such as Greeks and Maronites, in order to plot where they do. Agreed?
    I think the reason why Turkish Cypriots are more diverse than Greek Cypriots, if I can extrapolate from other populations we've seen so far, is that they mixed recently (as in the last 500 years) with other populations, as opposed to the Greek Cypriots which had been more endogenic (not as a choice but because they live on an island, but as opposed to the Turkish Cypriots, didn't mix much with Muslim populations from other places).
    I've noticed this is quite typical for many non-Muslim minorities within Muslim-majority societies - for example Assyrians also tend to be tightly close to each other autosomally, as well as Lebanese Christians.

    However, it's pretty clear that the overlap is that both eventually share the same origin - Greek Cypriots which adopted Islam and mixed with other populations that arrived to the island (either converted Maronites or Turks or Balkan Muslims).

    Can we draft a PCA with the Sikeliot kits added out of interest? i.e whenever you have the time Erik! I am in the process of trying to get further Greek Cypriot verified kit numbers. There is even the possibility of getting a Maronite Cypriot! It would only be one kit to start with, but hopefully in time we can see where they plot. They themselves may have become quite admixed over the centuries. Mihalis makes a valid point about adding the Aegean shifted Levantine Alawites, and say Christian and Druze Lebanese into the mix. I would also like to see how Syrian Jews plot, as well as Cappadocian Greeks. Of course, we also need to see exactly where Dodecanesians and Cretans plot to be able to put things in perspective.

    Does Erik need a Santa-like little helper? Applications are now open
    I'm working on it - if I'll ever need to run 70 GEDmatch kits and copy their results to an excel sheet - your on my speed dial . I also owe Sikeliot to plot his Sicilian kits lol. I hope he'll be able to get the kit numbers for those Cypriots which were plotted on the PCA.
    Check out my Hidden Content
    My Y-DNA: Q-M242 -> Q-L232 -> Q-L275 -> Q-M378 -> Q-Y2016 -> Q-L245 -> Q-FGC1904 -> Q-Y2209 -> Q-Y2225 -> Q-Y2197 -> Q-Y2750 -> Q-YP1004 -> Q-YP3924;
    My mtDNA: K1a1b1a;

    My dad's mtDNA: K2a2a;

  15. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Erikl86 For This Useful Post:

     Andrewid (01-10-2019),  Power77 (01-13-2019)

  16. #119
    Gold Member Class
    Posts
    1,730
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Jewish (Ashkenazi)
    Y-DNA
    Q-YP3924 (Q-M378)
    mtDNA
    K1a1b1a

    Israel
    In the meantime, added my 25 Greek Cypriots to the previous PCA. Turns out, 8 out of the 25 were already plotted there by the person who made it - so I ended up adding only 17 new Greek Cypriots.

    So in this PCA we now have ~65 Greek Cypriots. As suspected, only 12 of them plot between 'Cyprian' K15 average and Levant, but still except for one outlier which plot next to Lebanese Druze, the rest plot much closer to 'Cyprian' than to actual Levantines - as opposed to Turkish Cypriots which again show a more dispersed pattern with many close to Levantines. This now lowers the amount of Levantine-shifted Greek Cypriots to ~18%. I will later on also plot Alkaeveli's Turkish Cypriots on this PCA:

    Check out my Hidden Content
    My Y-DNA: Q-M242 -> Q-L232 -> Q-L275 -> Q-M378 -> Q-Y2016 -> Q-L245 -> Q-FGC1904 -> Q-Y2209 -> Q-Y2225 -> Q-Y2197 -> Q-Y2750 -> Q-YP1004 -> Q-YP3924;
    My mtDNA: K1a1b1a;

    My dad's mtDNA: K2a2a;

  17. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Erikl86 For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (01-10-2019),  Andrewid (01-10-2019),  LTG (01-10-2019),  Power77 (01-13-2019)

  18. #120
    Registered Users
    Posts
    364
    Sex
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Ethnicity
    English & Greek
    Nationality
    British
    Y-DNA
    J2-L397
    mtDNA
    H2a2a1

    United Kingdom England Greece Cyprus
    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    I excluded the original PCA I used earlier (given to me by Sikeliot) for two reasons:

    1. Alkaevli was kind enough to provide me with all his Cypriot kits (10 Greek Cypriots + 45 Turkish Cypriots) and asked me if I can post a clean Eurogenes K15-based PCA - so I did.
    2. I can vouch for Alkaevli's kits, the 4 kits I have from Andrewid, and the 11 other full Greek Cypriot kits I have from before (not the academic ones - but people which are known to be fully Cypriots) - as opposed to the already plotted coordinates on Sikeliot's PCA which I don't know where they came from.

    I've already asked Sikeliot for the kits numbers so I can verify to see they are Greek Cypriots - at least but running them on the different GEDmatch calculators or search their kits on One-to-Many to see if they fit other Cypriots. It's not as reliable as Alkaevli's ones which originate from an FTDNA project, or Andrew's kits which are from first hand full Cypriots, or the other 11 which I've gathered over time from Cypriots sharing their kits, but that would at least give me a possibility to see that indeed only full Cypriots were plotted.

    Although as I said in my previous post - the trend already shows with only these 25 Greek Cypriot kits - you can already see that it plots closer to Aegean Greeks and I'm quite certain that as we add more samples (Sikeliot's PCA had ~45 Greek Cypriot samples - much more than I plotted on this new plot) - it would show this trend only becoming more obvious and the average will move even closer to Dodecanese Greeks.
    That is completely fair and I thank you for taking the time to clear that up. My original post may have come across rather hostile based on how Michalis perceived it, but I assure you we are on the same page and I did not mean for it to come across that way. It has understandably been quite irritating to see the many questionable things said over the years regarding the Greek community on the island, mostly them being nothing more than Levantine, Arab and West Asian migrants who are Greek in name only. Considering all of the blood that has been shed to maintain that Greek identity on the island all the way from the Late Bronze Age until recent times, I would be lying if I did not take some offence when people say these sort of things. Thankfully, we now know that this is not the case. I was happy to see that Andrew and his family joined the cluster of other Mediterranean groups such as Sicilians, Cretans, Maltese and specifically the Romaniote/Sephardic Jews as well as having high correlations with Aegean islanders and the regions of former Magna Graecia. Overall, with the recent leaps and bounds taken regrading the genetics of Cypriots both Greek and Turkish (K15, G25, Alkaevli), I guess I was looking for as conclusive PCA as possible to prove beyond reasonable doubt that Greek Cypriots do indeed harbour genuine Greek ancestry and share a lot with other Greeks populations mainly from the Aegean. This subject to me is what the whole 'Khazar' shambles is to you in a lot ways, so I can get quite passionate about it.

    As for the other kits, the member who posted the original PCA appears to be a Turkish Cypriot individual over at The Apricity. Sikeliot should have little trouble getting them considering he is an admin there. Interestingly, both sets of Cypriots will reach roughly 45 samples each when all is said and done - so pretty conclusive stuff.
    Last edited by LTG; 01-10-2019 at 07:02 PM.

  19. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to LTG For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (01-10-2019),  Andrewid (01-10-2019),  Chatzianastasoglou (01-10-2019),  Erikl86 (01-10-2019),  Power77 (01-13-2019)

Page 12 of 21 FirstFirst ... 21011121314 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Ashkenazi 'large group' Y6923 turns up in Cyprus
    By wandering_amorite in forum E1b-M215
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 06-20-2018, 12:09 AM
  2. Gencove changing
    By firemonkey in forum Other
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 05-19-2018, 09:14 PM
  3. Changing cycles in nMonte
    By firemonkey in forum Autosomal (auDNA)
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 12-19-2016, 01:49 AM
  4. Digs uncover buildings in Cyprus' 11,000-year-old village
    By MfA in forum Archaeology (Prehistory)
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 07-14-2016, 02:07 PM
  5. Cyprus Y-DNA Distribution
    By mnd in forum Other
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 05-11-2015, 10:17 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •