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Thread: Changing the way we think about Cyprus genetically is necessary. Here's why.

  1. #131
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    This is really the long and short of it. People can have their negative opinions of Turkey and it's Neo-Ottoman tendencies, but the reality is that they get what they want. The Turks have always understood that on a fundamental level the only real thing that matters is looking after and strengthening their own interests. They act and then prepare for the consequences later. This is why they have been so successful in establishing a strong and unified Turk identity across the entire peninsula. I was in Istanbul earlier this year and any Greek that dreams of that great city being in Roman hands again is fooling themselves; it is littered with Ottoman iconography and the people are fiercely proud and patriotic. The Greeks on the other hand remain too liberal for their own good. This has led to financial and militaristic subjugation by the more predatory forces to both the west and east respectively. History repeating itself once again.
    Quote Originally Posted by Andrewid View Post
    This isn't really the right thread or forum for such discussion, but as an outsider I can't but admit that Atatürk achieved precisely what he intended. He did achieve the creation of a Turkish nation and state out of the embers of a burning Ottoman Empire. The price or cost for 'unassimilable' minorities is another matter. Greek diplomatic practice, in contrast, has usually lacked a carefully crafted methodology or long term strategy.

    As for Greek arrogance, we have as much of that as olive oil and feta cheese. That's why being fixated to a 'glorious' past can be counter-productive. The Greeks have a word for it: 'προγονοπληξία' or ancestor worship.
    Ancestor worship without really knowing these ancestors...

    Greeks are a quite anarchical people and probably always have been. A Greek Erdogan wouldn't survive politically a day in Greece. And just to come back to Cyprus. Today, although the occupation of 1974 was a big loss, (whole) Cyprus is represented today only by the Greeks of the island, the Turks are (rightfully) totally isolated. I don't think the Turkish way is more successful in the long term view. Also Turkey can only take what others allow it to take. If you, at that, look at the totalitarian predisposition of Turkey throughout its history, I think even as a modern Greek I feel much better off than any Turk.

    Now enough of it. =D
    Last edited by Chatzianastasoglou; 01-11-2019 at 03:06 PM.

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  3. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chatzianastasoglou View Post
    Ancestor worship without really knowing these ancestors...

    Greeks are a quite anarchical people and probably always have been. A Greek Erdogan wouldn't survive politically a day in Greece. And just to come back to Cyprus. Today, although the occupation of 1974 was a big loss, (whole) Cyprus is represented today only by the Greeks of the island, the Turks are (rightfully) totally isolated. I don't think the Turkish way is more successful in the long term view. Also Turkey can only take what others allow it to take. If you, at that, look at the totalitarian predisposition of Turkey throughout its history, I think even as a modern Greek I feel much better off than any Turk.

    Now enough of it. =D
    Yes let's get back to the main topic of the thread.

    But I can't help one last quip. Given the current demographic predicament of the Greek people as a whole (where Greeks are not even able to replace themselves), it won't be long at this rate before we won't have any Greeks to give us kit numbers and lovely PCAs to draw

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  5. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by LTG View Post
    That is completely fair and I thank you for taking the time to clear that up. My original post may have come across rather hostile based on how Michalis perceived it, but I assure you we are on the same page and I did not mean for it to come across that way. It has understandably been quite irritating to see the many questionable things said over the years regarding the Greek community on the island, mostly them being nothing more than Levantine, Arab and West Asian migrants who are Greek in name only. Considering all of the blood that has been shed to maintain that Greek identity on the island all the way from the Late Bronze Age until recent times, I would be lying if I did not take some offence when people say these sort of things. Thankfully, we now know that this is not the case. I was happy to see that Andrew and his family joined the cluster of other Mediterranean groups such as Sicilians, Cretans, Maltese and specifically the Romaniote/Sephardic Jews as well as having high correlations with Aegean islanders and the regions of former Magna Graecia. Overall, with the recent leaps and bounds taken regrading the genetics of Cypriots both Greek and Turkish (K15, G25, Alkaevli), I guess I was looking for as conclusive PCA as possible to prove beyond reasonable doubt that Greek Cypriots do indeed harbour genuine Greek ancestry and share a lot with other Greeks populations mainly from the Aegean. This subject to me is what the whole 'Khazar' shambles is to you in a lot ways, so I can get quite passionate about it.

    As for the other kits, the member who posted the original PCA appears to be a Turkish Cypriot individual over at The Apricity. Sikeliot should have little trouble getting them considering he is an admin there. Interestingly, both sets of Cypriots will reach roughly 45 samples each when all is said and done - so pretty conclusive stuff.
    I understand where you're coming from - as I've repeatedly claimed elsewhere, the branding of Cypriots as Levantines in previous genetic studies have also affected groupings and references of other populations with substantial Levantine admixture, ie Western Jews.

    I was unaware there is also malice intent behind it, as in the Khazar myth, but as both you and Andrewid revealed in your own discussion on this thread that the British repeatedly tried to rob you of your Greek identity - I see why it would be a charged subject, specifically when it turns out it is refuted by genetics.

    I believe this PCA gives a very nice picture of how Cypriots are, as I've repeatedly claimed here, basically Levant-shifted Aegean Greeks, with no Slavic-like admixture (as opposed to all other Aegean Greeks that show this slight admixture - even Dodecanese).

    Btw, it's also nice to see you've opened up, even if it's only remotely, to the possibility that indeed Western Jews might be a part of the East Mediterranean Continuum, and not by mere accident - but I won't be opening this can of worms again in this thread.
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  7. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    I understand where you're coming from - as I've repeatedly claimed elsewhere, the branding of Cypriots as Levantines in previous genetic studies have also affected groupings and references of other populations with substantial Levantine admixture, ie Western Jews.

    I was unaware there is also malice intent behind it, as in the Khazar myth, but as both you and Andrewid revealed in your own discussion on this thread that the British repeatedly tried to rob you of your Greek identity - I see why it would be a charged subject, specifically when it turns out it is refuted by genetics.

    I believe this PCA gives a very nice picture of how Cypriots are, as I've repeatedly claimed here, basically Levant-shifted Aegean Greeks, with no Slavic-like admixture (as opposed to all other Aegean Greeks that show this slight admixture - even Dodecanese).

    Btw, it's also nice to see you've opened up, even if it's only remotely, to the possibility that indeed Western Jews might be a part of the East Mediterranean Continuum, and not by mere accident - but I won't be opening this can of worms again in this thread.
    I appreciate that.

    This academic reasoning comes from the idea that Lebanese are the quintessential Levantine population. Whilst there is certainly no denying their continuity from the BA, there are certain problems they pose as a population cluster. The main one is that both the Christian and Muslim populations harbour roughly 7% Steppe input, alongside what appears to be the ability to model them with excess Barcin_N and CHG - although this could conceivably be a way in which the nature of the PCA can be taken advantage of due to their positioning. It is rather easy to discount this Steppe admixture as a minor and inconsequential component because it is only small in % terms. However, when taking into account just how disparate and northern the Yamnaya were as a population, we can begin to form conclusions as to why academics may lump Cyprus in with the Levant because of how Cypriots are Levant shifted Greeks and Lebanese are European shifted Levantines leading to overlap amongst their outliers. The issue with this is that it is only the current academic eastern shifted Greek/Turk/Maronite? mixed 'Cypriot' samples that show this minimal overlap. Even then it is via a single outlier, whereas the genuine Greek Cypriot samples we have literally connect to the academic Sephardi Jews, and by extension the academic Malta, South Italy, Crete and Ashkenazi samples also. They are not close to the Lebanese, never mind Samaritans (quintessential Levant as we know).

    We've had our differences on this topic, and it has regrettably gotten nasty in the past, but I will set the record straight on western Jews now. I view western Jews as part of the Mediterranean continuum and I always have. It would be absurd to say otherwise. I also acknowledge that it is quite conceivable that you harbour Greek ancestry that was mediated to you in Italy (Romanized Greeks) and the Levant (Greek converts). The idea that western Jews are 50% North Italian is something I do not subscribe too even if it makes modelling easier. To my eye, it is a rather lazy way of creating a composite population that explains the European ancestry in western Jews. It mixes their apparent 35% Tuscan and 15% German/French/Polish to get a North Italian-like population. In reality, the 35-40% Tuscan admixture that you are said to harbour could quite conceivably be a further composite of both North Italian and Greek.

    Also, do you have any update on the Alkaevli Turkish Cypriots being added to the PCA?

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  9. #135
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    I will throw in there that I do also consider Western Jews an eastern Mediterranean people even though I don't always list them off when discussing the topic. What I am steadfast about is I don't consider mainland Greeks or central Italians part of that group and I just barely include Apulians, Abruzzese, North Aegeans, and Cyclades.

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  11. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    I will throw in there that I do also consider Western Jews an eastern Mediterranean people even though I don't always list them off when discussing the topic. What I am steadfast about is I don't consider mainland Greeks or central Italians part of that group and I just barely include Apulians, Abruzzese, North Aegeans, and Cyclades.
    I have never really used the all encompassing 'East Mediterranean' label when analysing these populations unless I am posting in this thread. I prefer to just refer to the Mediterranean in general, because there does exist a continuum that appears to start around the Iberia/Northern Italy region and not just when we reach Southern Italy. Perhaps this mindset is because in Europe we view all of the countries that border the Mediterranean sea as a monolithic unit which we simply label as Southern Europe. This extends from Portugal in the west to Cyprus in the east. The genetic variation does exist and are discussed amongst the initiated, but in day to day life there exists a great deal of camaraderie and similarity between these peoples because of the shared way of life and climates they inhabit. Even in Southern France, many have this mindset.

    There is also the problem of Italy and Malta being in the Central Mediterranean whilst Greece, the Aegean islands, Cyprus and Israel are in the Eastern Mediterranean. This is why I categorise Southern Europe into a number of sub-sections when it comes to genetics. These are Iberia, North-Central Italy, the Balkans and then the Mediterranean islands. The Mediterranean islands would be the cluster we see that includes Southern Italy, Sicily, Malta, Aegean islands, Cyprus and western Jews. It is also likely that Sarno opted to use the term 'Mediterranean continuum' rather than 'East Mediterranean continuum', because the Italians are not geographically East Mediterranean people and they're often seen as part of western Europe. A lot of that has to do with the Catholic/Orthodox divide also.

    Of course, I will continue to use 'East Mediterranean continuum' when discussing matters in the threads on this forum because it is recognisable and a precedent has been set. I just wanted to point out that the territories of the Greek state are within the East Mediterranean, so they are East Mediterranean people (arguably the quintessential example, alongside the Phoenicians).
    Last edited by LTG; 01-13-2019 at 02:14 PM.

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  13. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by LTG View Post
    I have never really used the all encompassing 'East Mediterranean' label when analysing these populations unless I am posting in this thread. I prefer to just refer to the Mediterranean in general, because there does exist a continuum that appears to start around the Iberia/Northern Italy region and not just when we reach Southern Italy. Perhaps this mindset is because in Europe we view all of the countries that border the Mediterranean sea as a monolithic unit which we simply label as Southern Europe. This extends from Portugal in the west to Cyprus in the east. The genetic variation does exist and are discussed amongst the initiated, but in day to day life there exists a great deal of camaraderie and similarity between these peoples because of the shared way of life and climates they inhabit. Even in Southern France, many have this mindset.

    There is also the problem of Italy and Malta being in the Central Mediterranean whilst Greece, the Aegean islands, Cyprus and Israel are in the Eastern Mediterranean. This is why I categorise Southern Europe into a number of sub-sections when it comes to genetics. These are Iberia, North-Central Italy, the Balkans and then the Mediterranean islands. The Mediterranean islands would be the cluster we see that includes Southern Italy, Sicily, Malta, Aegean islands, Cyprus and western Jews. It is also likely that Sarno opted to use the term 'Mediterranean continuum' rather than 'East Mediterranean continuum', because the Italians are not geographically East Mediterranean people and they're often seen as part of western Europe.
    Taking into account both Greek geography and the genetic situation of the mainland, I think it makes more sense to label them "Balkan" rather than Mediterranean, while it makes sense to consider southern Italy through Cyprus as "Eastern Mediterranean" at least when discussing genetics (even if not geography) because calling it "Central-Eastern Mediterranean" implies that the genetic continuum goes from Sicily/Calabria through the islands to Cyprus, while there are islands in the Aegean genetically further from Cyprus than southern Italians are (Cyclades come to mind first, then some North Aegeans), and calling it "Mediterranean" falsely implies the western Mediterranean is part of the immediate continuum and it's really not.

    I don't even know if we can consider Iberians a Mediterranean people on a genetic basis: they are pretty much French-like people with some North African.
    Last edited by Sikeliot; 01-13-2019 at 02:17 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    Taking into account both Greek geography and the genetic situation of the mainland, I think it makes more sense to label them "Balkan" rather than Mediterranean, while it makes sense to consider southern Italy through Cyprus as "Eastern Mediterranean" at least when discussing genetics (even if not geography) because calling it "Central-Eastern Mediterranean" implies that the genetic continuum goes from Sicily/Calabria through the islands to Cyprus, while there are islands in the Aegean genetically further from Cyprus than southern Italians are (Cyclades come to mind first, then some North Aegeans), and calling it "Mediterranean" falsely implies the western Mediterranean is part of the immediate continuum and it's really not.

    I don't even know if we can consider Iberians a Mediterranean people on a genetic basis: they are pretty much French-like people with some North African.
    Greece is both in the Balkans and Mediterranean, but I understand your point and the genetic basis of it. The issue of what constitutes a 'Mediterranean people' genetically is debatable. The quintessential East Mediterranean population is often represented by the Mycenaeans for example, but even they derived a good bit of admixture from northern groups. Not only that, but their Indo-European political and religious systems were from Corded Ware type mediators who would have undoubtedly looked like modern day North European people. I would say that the presence of a significant Sardinian-like component in conjunction with geography makes a group a 'Mediterranean people' in the European sense. This is why most of the populations with the highest Barcin_N in Western Eurasia are either Sardinian, Iberian, Italian, Greek or Albanian who all happen to border the Mediterranean sea. The presence of excess Levant_N, Iran_N and CHG are also telltale signs and are what create the formation of what your idea of a Mediterranean group is. All of this is of course my personal opinion.
    Last edited by LTG; 01-13-2019 at 02:59 PM.

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  16. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by LTG View Post
    I appreciate that.

    This academic reasoning comes from the idea that Lebanese are the quintessential Levantine population. Whilst there is certainly no denying their continuity from the BA, there are certain problems they pose as a population cluster. The main one is that both the Christian and Muslim populations harbour roughly 7% Steppe input, alongside what appears to be the ability to model them with excess Barcin_N and CHG - although this could conceivably be a way in which the nature of the PCA can be taken advantage of due to their positioning. It is rather easy to discount this Steppe admixture as a minor and inconsequential component because it is only small in % terms. However, when taking into account just how disparate and northern the Yamnaya were as a population, we can begin to form conclusions as to why academics may lump Cyprus in with the Levant because of how Cypriots are Levant shifted Greeks and Lebanese are European shifted Levantines leading to overlap amongst their outliers. The issue with this is that it is only the current academic eastern shifted Greek/Turk/Maronite? mixed 'Cypriot' samples that show this minimal overlap. Even then it is via a single outlier, whereas the genuine Greek Cypriot samples we have literally connect to the academic Sephardi Jews, and by extension the academic Malta, South Italy, Crete and Ashkenazi samples also. They are not close to the Lebanese, never mind Samaritans (quintessential Levant as we know).
    I agree - as I plotted another 3 more verified Greek Cypriots (courtesy of Andrew) - all of them also again cluster on the "Aegean side" of the PCA, that is, they didn't show any specific Levant shift. This is in sharp contrast with Turkish Cypriots, that show much more dispersion and virtually all of them plot closer to the Levant and to Turks.

    We've had our differences on this topic, and it has regrettably gotten nasty in the past, but I will set the record straight on western Jews now. I view western Jews as part of the Mediterranean continuum and I always have. It would be absurd to say otherwise. I also acknowledge that it is quite conceivable that you harbour Greek ancestry that was mediated to you in Italy (Romanized Greeks) and the Levant (Greek converts). The idea that western Jews are 50% North Italian is something I do not subscribe too even if it makes modelling easier. To my eye, it is a rather lazy way of creating a composite population that explains the European ancestry in western Jews. It mixes their apparent 35% Tuscan and 15% German/French/Polish to get a North Italian-like population. In reality, the 35-40% Tuscan admixture that you are said to harbour could quite conceivably be a further composite of both North Italian and Greek.
    Precisely my point - the half and half model is currently, IMO, incomplete and also fail to answer why other, non-Ashkenazi Jews who shouldn't have any significant ancestry in the Italian peninsula, let alone North Italy, plot tightly and can also be modeled like that. This is basically one of the conclusions I came to in the Western Jews / East Mediterranean mega-thread in the ancient section.

    I'm glad to see we're on the same page here.

    Also, do you have any update on the Alkaevli Turkish Cypriots being added to the PCA?
    Yeah, here it is, plus 3 more kits from Andrewid, 25 more results of Sicilians from Palermo by Sikeliot, and few more Cretan Greek kits - also from Sikeliot:

    Check out my Hidden Content
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  18. #140
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    As for the East Mediterranean vs. general Mediterranean - the reason for using it, is that the historical background suggest that South Italians (Sicilians, and Maltese which mainly descent from Sicilians included) have substantial Hellenic admixture (this is also backed up by uniparentals) plus the fact that there isn't really a genetic continuity between North and South Italy - rather, there's a a big discontinuity which seem to have no geographical origin (ie there's no big barrier to separate North and South Italy), but rather a geopolitical one. Add to that the fact that North Italians actually do show genetic continuity with Iberians, despite being separated by thousands of kilometers and a huge mountain range (the Pyrenees) - this raises the question whether or not South Italians are basically mostly of East Mediterranean genetic admixture with the remaining being some Northern Italian, pre-Greek Italic people, and also additional Levantine and North African.

    So while geographically speaking, South Italy, Sicily and Malta are indeed in the Central Mediterranean, they might be genetically mostly of East Mediterranean admixture.
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