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Thread: Changing the way we think about Cyprus genetically is necessary. Here's why.

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seabass View Post
    I think the relationship between Syrian Jews with Cypriots is probably of the same level of authenticity as the relationship between Greek Cretans and Ashkenazi Jews, or Sephardic Jews and the Maltese.

    The two academic Syrian Jews which Eurogenes uses are pretty clearly to me recently Sephardic and Mizrahi admixed. How Musta'arabi they are I can't tell, but some on this forum may have found other Syrian Jews in gedmatch who show a bigger pull towards the Levant compared to Romaniots. These two academic samples instead seem to bridge between Western Jews and Eastern Jews. (Mizrahi) I think the additional ancient Mesopotamian ancestry among the two Syrian Jews is all that draws them closer on plots to Cypriots when compared to Romaniots and Sephardic Jews.

    My point below.

    1] "distance%=0.8292 / distance=0.008292"

    Syrian_Jew

    Romaniote_Jew 65
    Iraqi_Jew 35

    The below could be a realistic scenario.

    [1] "distance%=0.7696 / distance=0.007696"

    Syrian_Jew

    Romaniote_Jew 35.3
    Iraqi_Jew 34.0
    Sephardic_Jew 30.7

    Adding one of the more 'Anatolian' shifted Levantine-Arabs doesn't even do anything.

    [1] "distance%=0.7696 / distance=0.007696"

    Syrian_Jew

    Romaniote_Jew 35.3
    Iraqi_Jew 34.0
    Sephardic_Jew 30.7
    Lebanese_Druze 0.0

    Edit: I don't think these two Syrian Jews truly have any more unique of a relationship with Cypriots than do some other Western Jews.
    I would agree when it comes to the Syrian Jews from Global25, as I really don't know how they were sampled in the study they were taken from.

    The other Musta'arabi Syrian Jews brought in that other thread which also clearly show overlap with Cypriots, plus the fact that on MDLP calculators Cypriots regularly get Syrian Jews first and vice versa, to me means that there is probably similar admixture of Levantine, Anatolian and Hellenic ancestry in both which makes them overlap.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrewid View Post
    I would add that terms such as 'Hellenized Levantines' (popularised on a certain other forum) always has to be used in a very cautionary manner, anyway. At what percentage does a community swap designation? Are continental Greeks 'Hellenized Slavs'? Obviously the answer is no, despite significant admixture, as the core Aegean element remains.

    I agree with Agamemnon, that the Anatolian element in Cypriots is often underplayed. This applies in particular to the first colonization by early farmers throughout the contiguous areas of Cyprus, Crete and the southern Aegean. Current genetic and archaeological evidence is suggesting the spread of farming from southern Anatolia to Cyprus-Crete-Aegean. This may well have been the route taken into the southern Peloponnese, and accordingly continental Europe.

    From everything I've observed, patterns can be discerned where populations are grouped together in a cluster, where each acts as a kind of stepping stone across a genetic lake. This is certainly the case for the clines we have noticed in the central and east Mediterranean. We mustn't be surprised by the fact that one area melts into another. And we must be careful about what we mean by particular terms such as the 'Levant'. The 'Middle East' as a genetic term is rather meaningless. I only wish companies such as AncestryDNA would take note that their oversimplification of geographical areas is actually counter-productive, and serves to muddy the waters of what they are ostensibly trying to achieve. The 'Levant' itself is complicated and varied enough without including other areas, such as Mesopotamia and the Arabian peninsula, into the catch-all 'Middle East'. AncestryDNA even manages to place the horn of Africa into its 'Middle East' map. So placing Cyprus in Ancestry's Middle East category is meaningless, as it gives a misleading 'false positive' to Cypriots testing, but also attenuates the reliability of the Middle Eastern designation as a whole. I hope the American architects of the platform will eventually see the error of their ways.

    What Mihalis says about the genetic bridge from south east Europe to the Caucasus, if there hadn't been a Turkic settlement, is my observation too. The results we have seen of the Cappadocian Greeks indicates that they are a bridge from the Dodecanese and Cyprus to Pontic Greeks and Trabzon area Turks.

    As 100% Greek Cypriot, I have been tested on a variety of platforms, and have used various tools, as well as the expertise of individuals such as Davidski, Lukasz and Ph2ter. I've also been lucky to have the expertise of others, such as Erik and LTG, who have kindly provided PCAs with family members being plotted. The work of Alkaevli is invaluable as it gives us the Anatolian dimension, together with a visual representation of the relationship between Greek and Turkish Cypriots. What I consistently discern (and much on this point has already been expressed on other threads) is that there is a close Cypriot genetic relationship with Syrian Jews, Dodecanesians, and Romaniotes, and then with other members of the continuum.

    I shall post the K36 similarity maps of two Cypriots, who are unrelated to each other, my mother and father, which I've posted on another thread, so people reading this thread can see the genetic closeness to other members of the continuum. Sadly, we don't seem to have found a way to add western Jews to the K36 similarity database so that we can have a separate chart looking at similarities with the diaspora Jewish communities.

    Cypriot 1:

     



    Cypriot 2:

     



    This is the K13 Megaplot PCA by Ph2ter for me:

     



    My family PCA by Erik:
     


    All this is in line with what Davidski has confirmed to me: I am to be found at the southeastern edge of Europe, which is his experience with Cypriots as a whole.

    The above is just a snippet of what I've collected so far. The amount of individuals is obviously not a large enough group to be a representative sample, but the results fit in with the evidence we have to date.

    In conclusion, and to use a simplistic visual image: I see ancient Anatolian foundations, upon which high Mycenaean-Aegean ramparts have been built, together with Levantine parapets on top. The latter are of two types: the older Phoenician parapets and the later medieval oriental Christian ones.
    The first Cypriot above has a peak in Calabria. I am convinced Calabrians being the least North European in Italy offsets their North African input enough to shift them toward Cyprus.

    Calabrians are Dodecanese-like for the same reason. Notice Cyclades are the furthest islanders from the others and the least East Med/most Balkan.
    Last edited by Sikeliot; 01-02-2019 at 04:23 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    The first Cypriot above has a peak in Calabria. I am convinced Calabrians being the least North European in Italy offsets their North African input enough to shift them toward Cyprus.

    Calabrians are Dodecanese-like for the same reason. Notice Cyclades are the furthest islanders from the others and the least East Med/most Balkan.
    I actually believe it has more to do with the fact that the Hellenic component in Cypriots and Calabrians has some similarity. The reasons why this has merits is that actual similarity in uniparentals has been detected, not just autosomal correlation, which usually means actual shared ancestry from a similar group - for example the fact that all Western Jews seem to share the vast majority of their paternal uniparentals with Levantines is one of the strongest evidence of actual Levantine ancestry in Western Jews; same goes for post-Neolithic Levantine admixture in South Italians.

    While I'm usually against correlating genetics with linguistics, it seems the possibility that both Cyprus and Calabria were settled by Greeks speaking Arcadocypriot Greek (also called "southern Achaean"), and almost nowhere else, causes the affinity we see today:

    Arcadocypriot (also called "Southern Achaean") Greek speaker settlements in the East Med:



    Arcadocypriot Greek settlements in Magna Graecia (termed Achaeans in this map; mostly in Calabaria/Lucania):



    To be clear - I'm not claiming that somehow Calabrians have remained identical to these 8th century BC settlers, nor do I claim Cypriots are pure Achaean Greeks. I think it's just that other than Cyprus, which probably recieved substantial Greek element from Southern Achaeans, Calabria also recieved substantial amount of such settlement, and other places in the Hellenic world barely got any (and the original Achaean homeland from mainland Greece mixed with Slavs).

    This was also, btw, suggested in Heraclides et al. (2017):

    "If the high genetic affinity observed between Cypriots and Calabrian Italians is assumed to be true, it could be explained by the fact that South Italy has been a part of the ancient Greek world for centuries (Magna Graecia) and Calabria in particular has been settled by Achaean Greeks during the 8th and 7th cent. B.C [as Cyprus was, a few centuries back[67]]. Thus the high genetic affinity between Calabrians and Cypriots could be a result of a common ancient Greek (Achaean) genetic contribution to both populations."

    https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0179474
    Last edited by Erikl86; 01-02-2019 at 05:14 PM.
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    I know Im a bit off topic with this question but since we talk about Greek islanders, what about Greeks from the Ionian islands? How can they be ranged in all this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    I actually believe it has more to do with the fact that the Hellenic component in Cypriots and Calabrians has some similarity. The reasons why this has merits is that actual similarity in uniparentals has been detected, not just autosomal correlation, which usually means actual shared ancestry from a similar group - for example the fact that all Western Jews seem to share the vast majority of their paternal uniparentals with Levantines is one of the strongest evidence of actual Levantine ancestry in Western Jews; same goes for post-Neolithic Levantine admixture in South Italians.

    While I'm usually against correlating genetics with linguistics, it seems the possibility that both Cyprus and Calabria were settled by Greeks speaking Arcadocypriot Greek (also called "southern Achaean"), and almost nowhere else, causes the affinity we see today:

    Arcadocypriot (also called "Southern Achaean") Greek speaker settlements in the East Med:



    Arcadocypriot Greek settlements in Magna Graecia (termed Achaeans in this map; mostly in Calabaria/Lucania):



    To be clear - I'm not claiming that somehow Calabrians have remained identical to these 8th century BC settlers, nor do I claim Cypriots are pure Achaean Greeks. I think it's just that other than Cyprus, which probably recieved substantial Greek element from Southern Achaeans, Calabria also recieved substantial amount of such settlement, and other places in the Hellenic world barely got any (and the original Achaean homeland from mainland Greece mixed with Slavs).

    This was also, btw, suggested in Heraclides et al. (2017):

    "If the high genetic affinity observed between Cypriots and Calabrian Italians is assumed to be true, it could be explained by the fact that South Italy has been a part of the ancient Greek world for centuries (Magna Graecia) and Calabria in particular has been settled by Achaean Greeks during the 8th and 7th cent. B.C [as Cyprus was, a few centuries back[67]]. Thus the high genetic affinity between Calabrians and Cypriots could be a result of a common ancient Greek (Achaean) genetic contribution to both populations."

    https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0179474
    Such was the Arcadian cultural penetration in Cyprus, and accompanying colonisation, that the island constituted (along with the geographically distant Arcadian parent language) one of the four main Ancient Greek language or dialect groups, before the rise of Koine. Unfortunately, that dialect has completely died a death in both Arcadia and Cyprus- with the respective local idioms emerging from Koine. The only surviving modern Greek dialect that does not descend from Koine is Tsakonika, which originates from Doric. It is still spoken in a remote part of the eastern Peloponnese.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    The first Cypriot above has a peak in Calabria. I am convinced Calabrians being the least North European in Italy offsets their North African input enough to shift them toward Cyprus.
    Both the Cypriots above (my parents, in other words), have a spike in Calabria.

    They both peak in the Dodecanese (apart from Cyprus itself, of course).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrewid View Post
    Both the Cypriots above (my parents, in other words), have a spike in Calabria.

    They both peak in the Dodecanese (apart from Cyprus itself, of course).
    This is why I say Calabria shifts toward Dodecanese. Without the North African the distance would be extremely minimal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chatzianastasoglou View Post
    I know Im a bit off topic with this question but since we talk about Greek islanders, what about Greeks from the Ionian islands? How can they be ranged in all this?
    Closer to Cyclades and Maniots. Apulia is the closest in Italy to them genetically.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chatzianastasoglou View Post
    I know Im a bit off topic with this question but since we talk about Greek islanders, what about Greeks from the Ionian islands? How can they be ranged in all this?
    Very good point and the Eptanisii (seven islanders, as we call them in Greek) are so often overlooked in genetic discussions. These islands never fell under Ottoman control and were ruled by the Venetians for several hundred years until Napoleon and then the British took control. Migration from Ottoman lands to a completely different administration would have been more difficult. Enosis, or union with Greece, took place in 1864. I have never seen any specific Ionian results, so I don't know how admixed they are with Italic populations or how far Slavs penetrated into these isles. Some Albanian nationalists claim Corfu as a part of a Greater Albania, but I have never heard of Albanian settlements, even though you can clearly see the Albanian coast from Corfu.

    Does anyone have any Ionian Gedmatch kits?
    Last edited by Andrewid; 01-02-2019 at 08:36 PM.

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