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Thread: Bell Beaker Archaeology and Ancient DNA

  1. #1381
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    The one problem uses with my own suggestions of L51 passing west in the southernmost part of CW along the north fringe of the carpathians is the proximity to nonGAC old Europeans. That is not such good match to beaker P312 groups in an autosomal DNA sense as a more northern route. However a lot depends on whether they remained aloof from neighbours in their marriage network practices, who they chose to mix with etc. It is possible too that CW included a number of L51 lines, only some of which are relevant to L151 and ultimately P312.

    I still feel that the burial rites of the P312 beaker people most resemble those of CW and other cultures that lay east of a line from Sweden to the head of the Adriatic. The appearance of the gender and orientation burial preferences of the beaker people in not only beaker but some CW groups in Sweden, parts of Poland and even some groups of neither of those cultures to south of the Carpathians without/before actual beaker culture appearing is strange. It is suggestive to me of an influential group of lineage travelling widely before the actual coalescence of a P312 beaker culture and able to enter multiple cultures. I strongly suspect this burial practice will be shown to belong to L51 (including L151) men where it is found, regardless of culture. If so, then it would indicate the peculiar ability of P312 beaker to penetrate almost everywhere may have existed before beaker culture provided a tracking device for them.

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  3. #1382
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    The one problem uses with my own suggestions of L51 passing west in the southernmost part of CW along the north fringe of the carpathians is the proximity to nonGAC old Europeans. That is not such good match to beaker P312 groups in an autosomal DNA sense as a more northern route.
    So, if we may, let's for a moment return to your earlier suggestion, that I liked better:

    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    GAC and steppe elements (moving in opposite directions) would have met from northern Ukraine to Poland shortly after 3000BC...
    The route north of the steppe element in earliest CW c 2900BC must have been east of Poland and probably east of NW Ukraine as GAC existed in those areas prior to the earliest CW.
    Without bogging down in details, let alone in the Pripyat marsh, I note that it was just a year ago next week that I made an offhand remark to the effect that the source of DF27 (and by extension, the route out of the steppe for its paternal YDNA lineage) was "closer to Pinsk than to Barcelona." A couple of days ago you kept dancing around this route without actually mentioning Belarus; but that is the modern state containing Pinsk -- not to mention Brest, and other relevant places that might be named, north of Ukraine and east of Poland.

    Belarus doesn't seem to be a rich source of archaeologically recovered (and NextGen sequenced) human remains from around 3000 BC, but it may be a good place to look for some. https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post505611

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    Quote Originally Posted by razyn View Post
    So, if we may, let's for a moment return to your earlier suggestion, that I liked better:



    Without bogging down in details, let alone in the Pripyat marsh, I note that it was just a year ago next week that I made an offhand remark to the effect that the source of DF27 (and by extension, the route out of the steppe for its paternal YDNA lineage) was "closer to Pinsk than to Barcelona." A couple of days ago you kept dancing around this route without actually mentioning Belarus; but that is the modern state containing Pinsk -- not to mention Brest, and other relevant places that might be named, north of Ukraine and east of Poland.

    Belarus doesn't seem to be a rich source of archaeologically recovered (and NextGen sequenced) human remains from around 3000 BC, but it may be a good place to look for some. https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post505611
    Weirdly Belarus is one of those places I have trouble retaining a mental map of where it is :-) I tend to have that trouble in places with no coasts. Its wholly in the forest zone isnt it? I must admit I havent a clue about its archaeology. For some reason the archaeology of Ukraine, Russia and the Baltic states is easy to pick up but I cant remember reading a damn thing about Belarus.

  6. #1384
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    Quote Originally Posted by razyn View Post
    So, if we may, let's for a moment return to your earlier suggestion, that I liked better:



    Without bogging down in details, let alone in the Pripyat marsh, I note that it was just a year ago next week that I made an offhand remark to the effect that the source of DF27 (and by extension, the route out of the steppe for its paternal YDNA lineage) was "closer to Pinsk than to Barcelona." A couple of days ago you kept dancing around this route without actually mentioning Belarus; but that is the modern state containing Pinsk -- not to mention Brest, and other relevant places that might be named, north of Ukraine and east of Poland.

    Belarus doesn't seem to be a rich source of archaeologically recovered (and NextGen sequenced) human remains from around 3000 BC, but it may be a good place to look for some. https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post505611
    Just to clarrify though, I think the v early CW in the Scandinavia area must have involved steppe input which bypassed the GAC zone as it was c. 3000-2900BC. But as GAC was not apparently in Ukraine until c. 2950BC, that only rules out a route through Poland because GAC there apparently dates back to 3300BCish.

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  8. #1385
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    Just to clarrify though, I think the v early CW in the Scandinavia area must have involved steppe input which bypassed the GAC zone as it was c. 3000-2900BC. But as GAC was not apparently in Ukraine until c. 2950BC, that only rules out a route through Poland because GAC there apparently dates back to 3300BCish.
    Alan, I really appreciate your thinking and have done for a long while. It makes great material to ponder over.

    One question I want to ask though, is what numbers of population do you imagine were in the various areas such as GAC and CWC in that era (say broadly 3,000 BCE).

    Tks D

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    The Lech Valley data works...

    https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/...er-better.html

    You just have to run it with hashcheck: NO in Admixtools to convert it. The paper is probably coming next week.

    UNTA58_68Sk1 and WEHR_1192SkA are male Beakers with decent coverage, and they cluster at the opposite ends of the Lech Valley Beaker cline. But I don't really know an easy way to check their Y-haps, because the dataset only has base pair positions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    The Lech Valley data works...

    https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/...er-better.html

    You just have to run it with hashcheck: NO in Admixtools to convert it. The paper is probably coming next week.

    UNTA58_68Sk1 and WEHR_1192SkA are male Beakers with decent coverage, and they cluster at the opposite ends of the Lech Valley Beaker cline. But I don't really know an easy way to check their Y-haps, because the dataset only has base pair positions.
    I know you're running out of colours at this stage, but those MBA are really hard to read
    YDNA E-Y31991>PF4428>Y134097>Y134104>Y168273>FT17866 (TMRCA ~1100AD) - Domingos Rodrigues, b. circa 1690 Hidden Content , Viana do Castelo, Portugal - Stonemason, miller.
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    [1] "distance%=1.6023"

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  12. #1388
    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    Traveling in vegetation zone you are already familiar with e.g. cool temperate forest would make sense.



    This a present day map. Not sure how thing looked 5000 years ago.
    Yeah, I never gave it much thought but I suspected that the yamnaya moved up the steppe into Hungary, then used their mobile wagons to take advantage of the non forested areas as they moved west. But the forest steppe, and the degree of climate continuity that would imply, helps to explain rapid movement of L51. Im not totally sold either way (yamnaya, corded ware, or Eastern X) but the CW spread of L51 is very feasible now.

  13. #1389
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruderico View Post
    I know you're running out of colours at this stage, but those MBA are really hard to read
    I've been using the pipette in photoshop to read these diagrams for ages now : )

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruderico View Post
    I know you're running out of colours at this stage, but those MBA are really hard to read
    Fair point. I've made a change...

    Last edited by Generalissimo; 10-04-2019 at 10:49 PM.

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