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Thread: Bell Beaker Archaeology and Ancient DNA

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Also, it isn't that L51 is absent in the West and arrives from the East - L51 just appears basically out of nowhere in roughly modern-day Germany.
    We already know that Indo-European conquerors, who came to the East, where groups of males. It looks like they killed local males and took their females. In such cases, it can easily happen that some minor Y-haplogroup became very widespread in a short time.
    Remember also, that there is good chance, that a group of Eastern warriors could consist of male line relatives, actually there is chance they all were the same Y-happlogroup.

    According to Y full, R1b-P312 has TMRCA about 4500 ybp.
    Eldade et al already finds it 2458–2206 calBCE on the British Isles (we should not doubt, that P312 emerged and became wide-spread on the continent).
    This illustrates how quickly Y-happlogroups can expand at the moment of a male-driven conquer.

    L51 has just 2 branches with TRMCA 4800 ybp or older, this means that as late as in 2700 calBCE there could be probably just 2 small clans with L51 people.

    It is OK for Y-haplogroups to appear out of nowhere in such cases.
    Last edited by artemv; 01-08-2019 at 05:00 AM.

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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by artemv View Post
    L51 has just 2 branches with TRMCA 4800 ybp or older, this means that as late as in 2700 calBCE there could be probably just 2 small clans with L51 people.
    It is OK for Y-haplogroups to appear out of nowhere in such cases.
    Enquiring minds want to know!
    This human universal leads us to speculation.
    And to the hope that more samples will provide the answer: that this is simply a sampling problem.

    Or you could be right. Perhaps we will never find the evidence on this. It's just that in the past, something has usually eventually turned up.

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  5. #23
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    Three of the four ancient samples from Iberia that were uploaded to the European Nucelotide Archive today were males. As expected, all three lack R-M269 and belong to lineages that are uncommon or flat out non-existent in modern Iberians:

    COV20126 - Bronze age individual from Spain (Cueva del Angel):
    Y-chromosome haplogroup: I2a2-L181

    LU339 - Chalcolithic individual from Spain (Cueva del Angel):
    Y-chromosome haplogroup: I2a1b1-L161.1

    LD270 - Chalcolithic individual from Portugal (Lorga de Dinel):
    Y-chromosome haplogroup: H2a1a2~-SK1193
    Last edited by R.Rocca; 01-14-2019 at 04:17 PM.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543, Pietro della Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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  7. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    Three of the four ancient samples from Iberia that were uploaded to the European Nucelotide Archive today were males. As expected, all three lack R-M269 and belong to lineages that are uncommon or flat out non-existent in modern Iberians:

    COV20126 - Bronze age individual from Spain (Cueva del Angel):
    Y-chromosome haplogroup: I2a2-L181

    LU339 - Chalcolithic individual from Spain (Cueva del Angel):
    Y-chromosome haplogroup: I2a1b1-L161.1

    LD270 - Chalcolithic individual from Portugal (Lorga de Dinel):
    Y-chromosome haplogroup: H2a1a2-SK1193
    Hi R.Rocca, just checked the ISOGG 'Y' H Tree, SK1193, and its showing a reference to the subclade 'H2c1a~', although the position is not yet confirmed, but its good to see a new downstream further subclade of Y H2.

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  9. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul333 View Post
    Hi R.Rocca, just checked the ISOGG 'Y' H Tree, SK1193, and its showing a reference to the subclade 'H2c1a~', although the position is not yet confirmed, but its good to see a new downstream further subclade of Y H2.
    H2c1a looks like it was a main branch of H2 that spread in Europe during the Neolithic. Not only due to the profile of carriers, but also because of its diversification since the TMRCA ~6700 ybp
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/H-P96/
    https://www.familytreedna.com/public...frame=yresults
    Last edited by morganman3; 01-15-2019 at 02:20 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    I believe alan has been saying for years that he thinks early Iberian Maritime beakers were copies of Corded Ware beakers that Iberians acquired through trade at Grand Pressigny in France.

    We need the smoking gun that ties R1b-L51 to either Corded Ware or Yamnaya. My vote still goes to the Budzhak subcategory of Yamnaya.
    Could L-51 came into CWC territory from the Prut or the Dniester or even the Pripyat river? The Prut hypothesis is not far from your Budzhak one. Is Yamnaya_Hungary really needed for L-51?

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    Olivier Lemercier, one of the leading Bell Beaker archaeologists (certainly as it pertains to France), has published a new Bell Beaker paper. His previous work lead me to correctly call the large R-L2 presence in the Eastern Bell Beaker group. Here is a link to his new paper:

    Lemercier 2018 - Think and Act. Local Data and Global Perspectives in Bell Beaker Archaeology
    http://www.jna.uni-kiel.de/index.php...e/view/146/294

    Lemercier attributes many of the steppe-like funerary customs as coming from the east before Bell Beaker:



    What he is basically saying is that Corded Ware influenced the development of the Bell Beaker pottery, which would explain some of the earlier Iberian dates (collective graves). I marked up his map to show that R-M269 is missing from Western Europe during the Late Neolithic. It is a damning visual for those that have continued to promote, after failing to show a Middle Neolithic presence of M269 in Western Europe, that M269 existed in Copper Age Iberia between 3000-2500 BC. Especially damning for the out-of-Iberia crowd is that the very culture that would need to be be pre-P312, that is, the Remedello Culture and the Treilles Culture of Mediterranean France, both belong to I2a1 and G2a. A soon-to be published paper on Switzerland will show the same pattern there as well. The more northern Paris Basin Dolmen of La Pierre Fritte is also I2a1 and dated to 2750-2725 BC. The most fitting backdrop music is certainly "Nowhere to Run, Nowhere to Hide" by Martha and the Vandellas!



    He then goes on to state the following:



    Another words, Maritime is not any earlier the All-Over-Corded beakers. Based on three radiocarbon dates, Lee (2012) states the following: "Kromsdorf dates firmly to the Late Neolithic (2,600–2,500 cal BC)." This is based on their dates of 2678–2547 cal BC, 2573–2511 cal BC and 2573–2511 cal BC. I think that Lemercier's Iberian Bell Beaker arrows are likely overdrawn in his next map, but for an area like France could certainly explain the early Alsacian woman with no-steppe ancestry.

    Wait, R-L2 was found in ancient remains already? Wich ones? And do you think the future Swiss paper gonna show the arrivals of R-L2 in Northern Alps?

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  14. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    Wait, R-L2 was found in ancient remains already? Wich ones? And do you think the future Swiss paper gonna show the arrivals of R-L2 in Northern Alps?
    It was found in many ancient DNA samples thus far. See my map here:

    https://drive.google.com/open?id=15z...W0&usp=sharing
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543, Pietro della Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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  16. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    It was found in many ancient DNA samples thus far. See my map here:

    https://drive.google.com/open?id=15z...W0&usp=sharing
    That's pretty neat, thanks for doing it
    G25 Hidden Content and Hidden Content distances
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    DEIBABOR
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  18. #30
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    Radboud, there is renewed interest in the Bell Beakers. Therefore I want to return to your British admixture.
    As I wondered whether there is much difference between BB_Netherlands and BB_Britain I prepared a scatter plot:
    BB_British_Dutch.jpg
    You will notice that the BB_Dutch are completely overlapping with the bulk of the the BB_Brittan.
    However, the Britains have a much higher frequency (29/8). The consequence is that nearly all Dutch samples have only British closest neighbors.
    Now if you have few non_Dutch ancestors, genetic algorithms will fall back on your Bell Beaker substrate and notice that you have more British neighbors than Dutch ones.
    This unbalance of the data may be caused by the size of the populations but also by undersampling of the Dutch subgroup.

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