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Thread: Bell Beaker Archaeology and Ancient DNA

  1. #701
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    I think your map misses DF27, which is likely more frequent than U152 and L21 combined. I think any many out steppe routes are possible, but without more data, it is nearly impossible to determine which is correct.
    He omits it, but if it just refers to "oldest find so far" as distinguished from "birthplace," Quedlinburg DF27 is about halfway between the more eastern U152 and the P312, on that map.

    Not that I think any of these haplogroup IDs (from aDNA results in hand, so far) actually marks the birthplace of the associated mutation. L21 may be pretty close, by coincidence, but I wouldn't bet the farm. The rest, from M269 and later, should have happened closer to the tree trunk -- ergo longer ago (and not necessarily belonging on a map of "Beaker," as such).

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  3. #702
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    Origin of Iberian / Mediterranean Beaker
    Lemercier 2018 - conclusion about Mediterranean Beaker:

    "Thus, with the exception of burial traditions, each of the observed components shows profound differences between the local Neolithic traditions and the Bell Beaker practices or production. In my opinion, these changes reflect the exogenous nature of this phenomenon."

    So Lemercier agrees with Gimbutas that Bell Beaker cultural elements did not originate in the Atlantic/Iberian/French zone but were introduced from elsewhere.

    So where is the point of common origin for the common (excluding burial as that is adapted to local conditions) cultural traits. Gimbutas went for Vucedol. I suggested possibly Vucedol/Mako to reflect the I2a and R1b split and transfer of proto-Beaker cultural elements. (But, this seems much less compatible with a Baltic connection as above).

    If no common source at all, then one must hypothesise two highly divergent 'Old Europe I2a' and 'Steppe R1b' groups just happened to invent something very similar at the exact same time and spread it around western and central Europe at exactly the same time. Well, anything is possible. Just that some things are more likely than others.

    Lets not forget that 'Old Europe' / I2a was not isolated from the Steppe at the end of the 4th Millenium BC. Jean's Stelae clearly show the links back into Kemi Obi.

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  5. #703
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    The puzzle is coming together, Basques are about ~50% Rhenish Beaker like, and they do not get any Hungarian or Central European Beaker admixture, also with an exception of a few minor component in some of them, their other half is Native Iberian Neolithic people.

    These are the choices of populations used in the nMonte estimate:

    Blatterhole_HG
    Clovis
    Ethiopia_4500BP
    Iberia_ChL
    Iberomaurusian
    Malawi_Fingira_2500BP
    South_Africa_2000BP
    Tanzania_Luxmanda_3000BP
    Yamnaya_Ukraine
    Yoruba
    Beaker_Central_Europe
    Beaker_Hungary
    Beaker_The_Netherlands
    Globular_Amphora
    Anatolia_ChL
    Armenia_ChL
    Iberia_Central_CA
    Iberia_MN
    Iberia_Southwest_CA
    Loschbour
    WHG
    Guanche:guanche2_scaled
    Guanche:guanche8_scaled
    Guanche:guanche12_scaled


    Here are the estimates for French Basques, anything that does not shows is essentially 0%.

     

    [1] "distance%=2.4698"

    Basque_French:HGDP01367

    Iberia_Southwest_CA,52.7
    Beaker_The_Netherlands,46.8
    Clovis,0.5

    [1] "distance%=2.4301"

    Basque_French:HGDP01366

    Beaker_The_Netherlands,49.4
    Iberia_Central_CA,29.3
    Globular_Amphora,13.3
    Anatolia_ChL,5.5

    Iberia_Southwest_CA,2.5

    [1] "distance%=2.8089"

    Basque_French:HGDP01365

    Iberia_Southwest_CA,50.7
    Beaker_The_Netherlands,44.4
    Armenia_ChL,4.9

    [1] "distance%=2.0277"

    Basque_French:HGDP01364

    Beaker_The_Netherlands,40
    Iberia_Southwest_CA,35.5
    Globular_Amphora,12.3
    Armenia_ChL,10.4

    Iberia_Central_CA,1.8

    [1] "distance%=1.7479"

    Basque_French:HGDP01363

    Beaker_The_Netherlands,45.4
    Iberia_Central_CA,36
    Globular_Amphora,12.1
    Anatolia_ChL,6
    Armenia_ChL,0.5


    [1] "distance%=2.8493"

    Basque_French:HGDP01362

    Iberia_Southwest_CA,50
    Beaker_The_Netherlands,49.7
    Ethiopia_4500BP,0.3

    [1] "distance%=2.5837"

    Basque_French:HGDP01360

    Beaker_The_Netherlands,48.7
    Iberia_ChL,23.5
    Iberia_Central_CA,23
    Iberia_Southwest_CA,4.8

    [1] "distance%=2.6688"

    Basque_French:HGDP01359

    Beaker_The_Netherlands,46.3
    Iberia_Southwest_CA,41.9
    Globular_Amphora,11
    Guanche:guanche8_scaled,0.8 (Minor North African Influence)

    [1] "distance%=1.9963"

    Basque_French:HGDP01358

    Beaker_The_Netherlands,43.3
    Iberia_Southwest_CA,38.6
    Globular_Amphora,14.7
    Armenia_ChL,2.4

    Guanche:guanche8_scaled,0.7(Minor North African Influence)
    Iberomaurusian,0.3(Minor North African Influence)


    [1] "distance%=2.6679"

    Basque_French:HGDP01357

    Beaker_The_Netherlands,39
    Iberia_Southwest_CA,36.6
    Globular_Amphora,17.6
    Armenia_ChL,4.5

    Guanche:guanche8_scaled,2.3(Moderate North African Influence)


    I'll post Spanish Basques and even some Brits later, but it seems Basques are paternally Rhenish Beaker and maternally Iberian Copper Age. Whereas, I think Brits are something like 90% Rhenish Beaker-like.
    Last edited by jeanL; 02-12-2019 at 12:57 AM.

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  7. #704
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    Quote Originally Posted by Net Down G5L View Post

    So Lemercier agrees with Gimbutas that Bell Beaker cultural elements did not originate in the Atlantic/Iberian/French zone but were introduced from elsewhere.

    So where is the point of common origin for the common (excluding burial as that is adapted to local conditions) cultural traits.
    Lets not forget that 'Old Europe' / I2a was not isolated from the Steppe at the end of the 4th Millenium BC.
    But let's not forget, either, that cultural traits -- like admixture -- need not be inherited in a tree pattern (branching from one common trunk). L21, U152, DF27 and U106 are in a specific YDNA phylogeny and must have a common source at a time, and in a place. The Bell Beaker "package," a proposed R1b/I2a split, and a particular chromosome painting (e.g. for SGC circa 2500 BC) are not branches of a tree, and do not.

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  9. #705
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    Quote Originally Posted by razyn View Post
    But let's not forget, either, that cultural traits -- like admixture -- need not be inherited in a tree pattern (branching from one common trunk). L21, U152, DF27 and U106 are in a specific YDNA phylogeny and must have a common source at a time, and in a place. The Bell Beaker "package," a proposed R1b/I2a split, and a particular chromosome painting (e.g. for SGC circa 2500 BC) are not branches of a tree, and do not.
    Yes, absolutely agreed. I think the admixture analogy is a good way of thinking of it. That may be exactly what makes it so difficult to pin down...and hence so interesting a puzzle for all of us.

  10. #706
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    Quote Originally Posted by razyn View Post
    He omits it, but if it just refers to "oldest find so far" as distinguished from "birthplace," Quedlinburg DF27 is about halfway between the more eastern U152 and the P312, on that map.

    Not that I think any of these haplogroup IDs (from aDNA results in hand, so far) actually marks the birthplace of the associated mutation. L21 may be pretty close, by coincidence, but I wouldn't bet the farm. The rest, from M269 and later, should have happened closer to the tree trunk -- ergo longer ago (and not necessarily belonging on a map of "Beaker," as such).

    Agreed Quedlinburg is informative but I wanted to avoid putting on single Beaker sample haplogroups or I would have to add I2, G2a, Z2103 etc and I do not think that would help in the context of the current recent discussion (having agreed movement East to mix with Yamnaya at a later stage etc).

    Yes, If we are looking for the 'birth place' that is very difficult. If I had to bet on L21 it would be at another site on the Rhine delta where we may find a mix of P312 and L21 in the 'family group'.
    However, the current Dutch samples could be misleading if they are predominantly from one site / one family that had settled there / expanded there for a good number of years. It is quite possible that the samples could represent a group that is way down a P312 branch that is a dead end branch (sort of cousin not potential father/grandfather of L21) - so not showing any of our known present day branches. So the birthplace of P312 could be a long, long, way off that location. But as Davidski says, lets not get totally hung up on phylogeny as the autosomal data gives us the bigger picture relationships.


    . Ok, decided to stop being lazy (because it is a very good point of RR's if we are trying to understand the key R1b role in spread of Eastern Beaker) and put DF27 Quedlinburg on the map - on tributary to the Elbe-Saale (Mittel-Elbe).

    Not birthplaces but partial (and hence possibly misleading!) picture of distribution within a few hundred years.
    Lemercier annotation plus DF27.jpg

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  12. #707
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    Thought I would check latest TMRCAs as they have a habit of changing when you are not looking...

    YFull (and McDonald) TMRCAs at 12/2/2019
    L51 Formed 6,100BP TMRCA 5,700BCE
    (Big time gap....)
    L151/L11 TMRCA 4800BP
    U106 Formed 4800BP TMRCA 4700BP
    P312 Formed 4800BP TMRCA 4500BCE (McDonald TMRCA c.4600BP)
    DF27 Formed 4500BP TMRCA 4500BCE (McDonald TMRCA c. 4500BP)
    U152 Formed 4500BP TMRCA 4500BP (McDonald TMRCA c.4425 BP)
    L21 Formed 4500BCE TMRCA 4200BP (McDonald TMRCA c 4500BP)

    I think the dates make a compelling case for at least seriously looking at Richard's Battle Axe and Burial style links between Swedish Battle Axe and Dutch Beaker.

    With L151/L11 TMRCA of c2850BCE (Pre-Eastern Beaker and just Pre-Swedish Battle Axe) somewhere within reach of the Baltic looks likely. If the autosomal TRB/GAC connection is not explained away by other related sources....that helps also? (And yes, another caveat, we must remember the scepticism on the reliability of RC dates).

  13. #708
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    I don't think he referenced non-IE anywhere, unless I missed it in a prior post???
    He didn't, but his idea implied it, whether that was his intent or not. If I understood him aright, he had P312 and U106 coming from the northwest, trading with Z2103 types at Csepel and learning about and acquiring horses there.

    If they had to learn about horses from the expert Z2103 horse managers, then they were not IE themselves but had to be Indo-Europeanized.

    If that's not what he meant, maybe he could clarify things for me.

    If there was an R1b-P312 clan or clans within Single Grave Corded Ware, maybe Protruding Foot Beaker, then they were already Indo-European and already had horses of their own, at the very least for food and traction, even if they weren't riding them.

    I think they were riding them, too.
    Last edited by rms2; 02-12-2019 at 02:07 PM.
     


    Hidden Content


    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36981 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982 >FGC36981)

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

  14. #709
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    He didn't, but his idea implied it, whether that was his intent or not. If I understood him aright, he had P312 and U106 coming from the northwest, trading with Z2103 types at Csepel and learning about and acquiring horses there.

    If they had to learn about horses from the expert Z2103 horse managers, then they were not IE themselves but had to be Indo-Europeanized.

    If that's not what he meant, maybe he could clarify things for me.
    I reread his post and nothing in it says anything about NW being non-IT and not having access to horses.

    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    If there was an R1b-P312 clan or clans within Single Grave Corded Ware, maybe Protruding Foot Beaker, then they were already Indo-European and already had horses of their own, at the very least for food and traction, even if they weren't riding them.

    I think they were riding them, too.
    I think that it is exactly what he meant and that the Csepel Danube bend was a horse trading post with continued access to the steppe.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543, Pietro della Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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    I don’t want to argue about a third party’s post. If I misunderstood what dsm was saying, maybe he could explain.
     


    Hidden Content


    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36981 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982 >FGC36981)

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

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