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Thread: Bell Beaker Archaeology and Ancient DNA

  1. #931
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeanL View Post
    Earliest evidence of R1b-P312 in Iberia comes from:

    EHU002 UE 450 tooth half 662713 M K1a4a1 R1b1a1a2a1a2(xR1b1a1a2a1a2a5) Yes C_Iberia_CA_Stp C 2562–2306 cal BCE (3933±32 BP, CSIC-1896) El Hundido, Monasterio de Rodilla, Burgos, Castilla y León 42.419214 -3.484745 Spain

    Who can be modeled as per Table-S15:

    EHU002 C_Iberia_CA_Stp 9.30E-01(P-value) 0.371(Iberia_CA) 0.629(Germany_Beaker) 0.049(SE)
    I sent an email to Javier Jiménez Echevarría and Carmen Alonso about this sample. The same sample (UE 450), with the same radiocarbon lab identifier (CSIC-1896), is dated to 2490-2335 calBC (2σ) in Anna Szécsényi-Nagy (2017). In Alonso-Fernandez (2013) the sample is listed as 2492-2334 calBC (2σ), but perhaps with a different identifier (CSIC-1996). Since Olalde did not radiocarbon test this sample, I'd have to think that the broader 2562–2306 calBC date is actually the 1σ date.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543, Pietro della Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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  3. #932
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    An L21 equivalent sample from the Roman period (I6492), although the sample looks to be of terribly low coverage. Also of interest is the U106+S263+ sample I10895 and dated to 777–981.
    This part here caught my eye: Also of interest is the U106+S263+ sample I10895 and dated to 777–981!

    So what is the background on that sample... anyone know? How is the coverage? If we have a BAM or .fastq I can have Alex W. take a look!
    Sounds like I have another aDNA sample to add to the U106 list - the dating is certainly post Migration period...

    CHeers!
    Y-DNA: 4th GGF Adam Weaver born 1785 in Pennsylvania (most likely German) - Sergeant in US 17th Infantry, War of 1812: R1b-U106-Z381-Z156-Z305/306/307-Z304-DF98-S1911-S1894/S1900-S4004/FGC14818/FGC14823-FGC14816/FGC14817 shared with 6drif-3!

    mtDNA: 3rd GGM Bridget Dana b. 1843 Ireland - T2b2b - Ireland, Scandinavia and Hungary - T2b female warrior Grave Bj 581 near Birka, Sweden. Relative of King Bela III of Hungary (his Y-DNA and autosomal kinsman buried near him had mtDNA T2b2b1)!

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  5. #933
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    Quote Originally Posted by ADW_1981 View Post
    Couldn't these be argued as Hellenized Iberians though? Didn't the paper suggest two clusters? One with Iberians and the other with Eastern Mediterranean? I didn't look closely at the data though.
    Suppose they could be locals but they plot above the BA samples in the PCA and you'd have thought the locals would have been closer to Neolithic Iberia by then ?

    Iberia_PCA.jpg

    Also they pre-date the Hellenistic period

    I8209, NE_Iberia_Greek (Empúries1), 450-400 BCE, R1b1a1a2a1a2
    I8210, NE_Iberia_Greek (Empúries1), 500-350 BCE, R1b1a1a2
    I8211, NE_Iberia_Greek (Empúries1), 500-450 BCE, R
    I8212, NE_Iberia_Greek (Empúries1), 500-350 BCE, R
    I8341, NE_Iberia_Greek (Empúries1), 500-350 BCE, R1b1a1a2a1a2
    I8344, NE_Iberia_Greek (Empúries1), 500-400 BCE, R1b1a1a

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  7. #934
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    I sent an email to Javier Jiménez Echevarría and Carmen Alonso about this sample. The same sample (UE 450), with the same radiocarbon lab identifier (CSIC-1896), is dated to 2490-2335 calBC (2σ) in Anna Szécsényi-Nagy (2017). In Alonso-Fernandez (2013) the sample is listed as 2492-2334 calBC (2σ), but perhaps with a different identifier (CSIC-1996). Since Olalde did not radiocarbon test this sample, I'd have to think that the broader 2562–2306 calBC date is actually the 1σ date.
    Carmen Alonso replied and the difference is in the calibration program used. She said the average date should be quoted as 2490-2335 calBC. So, the mid-point is around 2413 BC. He seems to be a contemporary of the earliest P312 samples from the Netherlands and France, but all are a generation or two younger that the Bavarian U152 sample.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543, Pietro della Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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  9. #935
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    One quote I found particularly relevant to the BB discussion as far as Iberia is concearned


    Finding a Bell Beaker-related group as a plausible source for the introduction of steppe ancestry into Iberia is consistent with the fact that some of the individuals in the Iberia_CA_Stp group were excavated in Bell Beaker associated contexts (9). Models with Iberia_CA and other Bell Beaker groups such as France_Beaker (P-value=7.31E-06), Netherlands_Beaker (P-value=1.03E-03) and England_Beaker (P-value=4.86E-02) failed, probably because they have slightly higher proportions of steppe ancestry than the true source population.
    YDNA - E-Y31991>PF4428>BY36857. Domingos Rodrigues, b. circa 1680 Hidden Content , Viana do Castelo, Portugal
    mtDNA - H20. Maria Josefa de Almeida, b. circa 1750 Hidden Content , Porto, Portugal

    Global25 PCA West Eurasia dataset Hidden Content
    Hidden Content


    [1] "distance%=0.8188"

    Ruderico

    Scotland_LBA,39.6
    ALPc_MN,21.4
    England_CA_EBA,18.8
    Ukraine_N_o,14.6
    Iberomaurusian,5.6

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  11. #936
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    Carmen Alonso replied and the difference is in the calibration program used. She said the average date should be quoted as 2490-2335 calBC. So, the mid-point is around 2413 BC. He seems to be a contemporary of the earliest P312 samples from the Netherlands and France, but all are a generation or two younger that the Bavarian U152 sample.
    So it seems the terminus ante quem date for the arrival of R1b-P312 in Iberia is ~2400 BC. What do you make of it being contemporary with the earliest Rhenish Beaker? Seems to me since Rhenish Beakers are more Steppe-like than German Beakers, that perhaps if they used Rhenish Beakers to model this guy, he might have been 50/50 Iberia_CA/Rhenish_Beaker which mean he might be the son of a first generation migrant. If I understand nomenclature correctly they are saying that he is R1b-P312(xL21)?

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  13. #937
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeanL View Post
    So it seems the terminus ante quem date for the arrival of R1b-P312 in Iberia is ~2400 BC. What do you make of it being contemporary with the earliest Rhenish Beaker? Seems to me since Rhenish Beakers are more Steppe-like than German Beakers, that perhaps if they used Rhenish Beakers to model this guy, he might have been 50/50 Iberia_CA/Rhenish_Beaker which mean he might be the son of a first generation migrant. If I understand nomenclature correctly they are saying that he is R1b-P312(xL21)?
    My inclination is to think that, since only 3 Rhenish samples have been tested to date, there is a possibility that older ones exist, especially in an AOO context. We also need to keep in mind that the German Bell Beaker samples contain many younger samples that were already diluted of their steppe ancestry. I would imagine the earlier German Bell Beaker samples probably had as much steppe ancestry as the Rhenish ones. What is interesting to me still is that all three dates from Kromsdorf, where M269 and M343 Bell Beakers have already been found, date to 100 years older than any of these P312 samples:

    2678-2547 calBC (65.7%) [KIA42883]
    2573-2511 calBC (62%) [KIA42884]
    2573-2511 calBC (55.3%) [KIA42882]
    Last edited by R.Rocca; 03-15-2019 at 03:48 PM.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543, Pietro della Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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  15. #938
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruderico View Post
    One quote I found particularly relevant to the BB discussion as far as Iberia is concearned
    But if you add something a little bit more Middle Neolithic France, the fits are very good. This is for the oldest Iberian BB sample EHU002:

    ==============================
    Iberia_Central_CA_Stp:EHU002
    "distance%=2.1389"

    Beaker_The_Netherlands,47.4
    Iberia_ChL,45.4
    France_MLN,6.7
    Blatterhole_HG,0.5
    ==============================
    Iberia_Central_CA_Stp:EHU002
    "distance%=2.0464"

    CWC_Germany,41.9
    Iberia_ChL,39.2
    France_MLN,17
    Blatterhole_HG,1.9
    ==============================
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543, Pietro della Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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  17. #939
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    Naturally the incoming BB population was more EEF-admixed than the Rheinland Beakers, which implies that the Bronze Age replacement rate in Iberia was higher than initially thought
    Last edited by Ruderico; 03-15-2019 at 06:44 PM.
    YDNA - E-Y31991>PF4428>BY36857. Domingos Rodrigues, b. circa 1680 Hidden Content , Viana do Castelo, Portugal
    mtDNA - H20. Maria Josefa de Almeida, b. circa 1750 Hidden Content , Porto, Portugal

    Global25 PCA West Eurasia dataset Hidden Content
    Hidden Content


    [1] "distance%=0.8188"

    Ruderico

    Scotland_LBA,39.6
    ALPc_MN,21.4
    England_CA_EBA,18.8
    Ukraine_N_o,14.6
    Iberomaurusian,5.6

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