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Thread: Bell Beaker Archaeology and Ancient DNA

  1. #691
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    Funnelbeaker was the first with horses and wagons FWIW....

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  3. #692
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    Nice video rms2. Chad, prompted by your interesting comment, found this pdf - "Horse size and domestication: Early equid bones from the Czech Republic in the European context" from 2016 - where authors argue for "importation of tamed or even domesticated horses as early as the times of TRB culture" 3800-3350 BC (they are clear that to their mind these must have been domesticated elsewhere, to the east). Is this what we're thinking of?

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  5. #693
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    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    Yes it is, but PIE and the domestication of horses, as well as their appearance west of the steppe, date back to an earlier period than the earliest Beakers. So domestic horses probably can't be used to trace the spread of early Beakers.

    For instance, one issue might be that the earliest Beakers with steppe ancestry were a maritime people who didn't rely heavily on horses, but their descendants may have began relying heavily on horses as they expanded throughout Europe via land.
    With a major trading post (Csepel) between the earlier R1b-Z2103 & I2 already well established there who had a long history of horse management, trading with the peoples who came down from the lands to the west & north-west and included P312 & U106. Just imagining. D.

    PS attached a grab that has always caught my attention created by Richard Rocca. While I'm not sure of his confidence in the U106 shown at Csepel. It is a very interesting image none the less.

    Link: https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer...0F27gRe-Kyp65A
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by dsm; 02-11-2019 at 12:31 PM. Reason: added image

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  7. #694
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsm View Post
    With a major trading post (Csepel) between the earlier R1b-Z2103 & I2 already well established there who had a long history of horse management, trading with the peoples who came down from the lands to the west & north-west and included P312 & U106. Just imagining. D. . . .
    You're imagining something that is unlikely, i.e., a non-IE origin in the west and northwest for P312 and U106, because PIE was the language of people who placed a lot of emphasis on horses.
     


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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    You're imagining something that is unlikely, i.e., a non-IE origin in the west and northwest for P312 and U106, because PIE was the language of people who placed a lot of emphasis on horses.
    I don't think he referenced non-IE anywhere, unless I missed it in a prior post???
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543, Pietro della Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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    I was struck by a couple of RR's earlier posts showing distribution of Eastern Beaker like burials (Middle Dnieper and Swedish Battle Axe) and the Lemercier 2011 diagram of battle axe in Dutch and British Beaker.

    I have added (in summary form) that info to a new Beaker diagram of the 'Middle Beaker Phase' Lemercier 2018
    http://http://www.jna.uni-kiel.de/in...e/view/146/294

    Lemercier annotation.jpg

    from Lemercier 2018 Think and Act. Local Data and Global Perspectives in Bell Beaker Archaeology (annotated)

    I have also added possible dominant 'DNA families' to the diagram (U106 / P312 / L21 / U152 (L2) and ? = unknown.

    OK, I know this is just selected (cherry picked?) facts...

    But, does it suggest a possible Dnieper- Baltic - Netherlands route from the Steppe via single grave?
    The ? for the DNA in North Poland (M269??) and ? Denmark /? northern Germany for this period could be informative on this matter.

    The map also re-enforces the later spread of L21 west into the Isles and L2 East and South East o the Czech Republic / Danube Csepel and Lech Valley towards the Alps.

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  12. #697
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    The point I was making was that the use of horses won't tell us where the Beaker population originated, because horses were used in Northern Europe and the Carpathian Basin before the Beaker culture came into existence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    The point I was making was that the use of horses won't tell us where the Beaker population originated, because horses were used in Northern Europe and the Carpathian Basin before the Beaker culture came into existence.
    I don't think anyone was expecting it to. The question was something along the lines of "If Steppe Bell Beaker was derived from steppe cultures, why isn't there any proof of horses and/or horse riding in Bell Beaker. As answered, there is osteological proof of horse riding and horse bones from some Bell Beaker sites (Csepel) etc. that have been rare to come by in far away places like Ireland.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543, Pietro della Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Net Down G5L View Post
    I was struck by a couple of RR's earlier posts showing distribution of Eastern Beaker like burials (Middle Dnieper and Swedish Battle Axe) and the Lemercier 2011 diagram of battle axe in Dutch and British Beaker.

    I have added (in summary form) that info to a new Beaker diagram of the 'Middle Beaker Phase' Lemercier 2018
    http://http://www.jna.uni-kiel.de/in...e/view/146/294

    Lemercier annotation.jpg

    from Lemercier 2018 Think and Act. Local Data and Global Perspectives in Bell Beaker Archaeology (annotated)

    I have also added possible dominant 'DNA families' to the diagram (U106 / P312 / L21 / U152 (L2) and ? = unknown.

    OK, I know this is just selected (cherry picked?) facts...…

    But, does it suggest a possible Dnieper- Baltic - Netherlands route from the Steppe via single grave?
    The ? for the DNA in North Poland (M269??) and ? Denmark /? northern Germany for this period could be informative on this matter.

    The map also re-enforces the later spread of L21 west into the Isles and L2 East and South East o the Czech Republic / Danube Csepel and Lech Valley towards the Alps.
    I think your map misses DF27, which is likely more frequent than U152 and L21 combined. I think any many out steppe routes are possible, but without more data, it is nearly impossible to determine which is correct.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543, Pietro della Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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  17. #700
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    I think your map misses DF27, which is likely more frequent than U152 and L21 combined. I think any many out steppe routes are possible, but without more data, it is nearly impossible to determine which is correct.
    The DNA I annotated on the map is not referring to modern or hypothetical ancient DNA but to the dominant (high numbers) Eastern Beaker ancient DNA (Olalde) from the 'middle Beaker period' of Lemercier 2018 - P312 in the Netherlands, L21 in Britain, L2 in Czech Republic and Danube/tributaries.

    Yes, almost any route is possible. I still think the two options I put in GS are possible....however, I think routes via the Czech republic - which looked like an obvious direct route West - now look much less likely, unless the current samples gathered are making us lose site of an earlier (as yet unsampled) flow East to West through the area before a reflux back again. So yes, more data is needed.
    Although rc dates may be unreliable for the period, they do suggest that sampled northern Germany Beakers may be older than sampled Dutch Beakers. Unfortunately the northern Germany samples are lacking in published aDNA. Nor do Danish Beaker / single grave have published aDNA as far as I am aware.

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