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Thread: Bell Beaker Archaeology and Ancient DNA

  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Except that the ancient dna supports the idea that Kurgan BB burials were largely single grave, Yamnaya-type burials, while early Iberian BB burials were collective, Neolithic types of burials that completely lacked R1b-M269 and steppe dna.

    Attachment 28193

    Not sure why Besse left Britain and Ireland off her map, but it is what it is.

    Just out of curiosity, what is your y-dna haplogroup, if you know?
    I'm Y DNA I, not R1b or anything like that.

  2. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Except that the ancient dna supports the idea that Kurgan BB burials were largely single grave, Yamnaya-type burials, while early Iberian BB burials were collective, Neolithic types of burials that completely lacked R1b-M269 and steppe dna.

    Attachment 28193

    Not sure why Besse left Britain and Ireland off her map, but it is what it is.

    Just out of curiosity, what is your y-dna haplogroup, if you know?
    What you said is just as consistent as me saying that the Bell Beakers just adopted the local burial types. That map could easily just show influence of CW and Yamnaya as being the white triangles, for example. I think this burial issue is overhyped, I really like what that book link says (not because it agrees with me, but because it seems logical).

    The big question left answering, if you are correct, is where did L51 come from? It wasn't Yamnaya or Corded Ware, as both are exclusively (from East to West) non-L51.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    What you said is just as consistent as me saying that the Bell Beakers just adopted the local burial types. That map could easily just show influence of CW and Yamnaya as being the white triangles, for example. I think this burial issue is overhyped, I really like what that book link says (not because it agrees with me, but because it seems logical).
    Where is the L51 in the pre-single grave Neolithic farmer locals? You know, the guys who would have had to copy CW and Yamnaya burial styles for you to be right.

    Why is it that L51 is MIA in Europe west of the steppe until the mid-third millennium BC, arriving only then and with steppe dna, just at the right time to be the Indo-Europeans?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    The big question left answering, if you are correct, is where did L51 come from? It wasn't Yamnaya or Corded Ware, as both are exclusively (from East to West) non-L51.
    The bigger question is for you to answer, since Neolithic Europe west of the steppe has a pretty large and growing collection of ancient y-dna results already:

    Where is the L51 in Europe west of the steppe before the mid-third millennium BC and the advent of both steppe dna and Indo-European languages and culture?

    We have very few ancient y-dna test results from western Yamnaya, the Yamnaya of the Pontic-Caspian steppe, none from its Budzhak subgroup, and none from the literally thousands of kurgans in the Carpathian Basin, that is, from precisely the Yamnaya people who went west. We also need some results from more of Yamnaya's Eneolithic feeder cultures, especially in places and cultures with Beaker-like burial customs, like Mikhailovka and Kemi Oba.

    Why is it that when L51 finally appears in Europe west of the steppe it is in two steppe-derived cultures, Kurgan Bell Beaker and Proto-Nagyrev?

    I am still wondering what your y-dna haplogroup is.
     


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    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36981 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982 >FGC36981)

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

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  5. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Where is the L51 in the pre-single grave Neolithic farmer locals? You know, the guys who would have had to copy CW and Yamnaya burial styles for you to be right.

    Why is it that L51 is MIA in Europe west of the steppe until the mid-third millennium BC, arriving only then and with steppe dna, just at the right time to be the Indo-Europeans?



    The bigger question is for you to answer, since Neolithic Europe west of the steppe has a pretty large and growing collection of ancient y-dna results already:

    Where is the L51 in Europe west of the steppe before the mid-third millennium BC and the advent of both steppe dna and Indo-European languages and culture?

    We have very few ancient y-dna test results from western Yamnaya, the Yamnaya of the Pontic-Caspian steppe, none from its Budzhak subgroup, and none from the literally thousands of kurgans in the Carpathian Basin, that is, from precisely the Yamnaya people who went west. We also need some results from more of Yamnaya's Eneolithic feeder cultures, especially in places and cultures with Beaker-like burial customs, like Mikhailovka and Kemi Oba.

    Why is it that when L51 finally appears in Europe west of the steppe it is in two steppe-derived cultures, Kurgan Bell Beaker and Proto-Nagyrev?

    I am still wondering what your y-dna haplogroup is.
    I've said what it is, it is Y DNA I.

    Also, it isn't that L51 is absent in the West and arrives from the East - L51 just appears basically out of nowhere in roughly modern-day Germany. There are no known trails of L51 leading up to its appearance in Germany, so archaeology and looking at modern Y DNA phylogeny is all we can rely on. Sure, it arrives with Steppe DNA suggesting an Eastern origin, but the immediate precursors in the area had that in much greater abundance, which suggests a direct dilution. I am not sure whether I believe the whole Beaker R1b + CWC mtDNA story, as given these Beaker folk were elites they could preserve admixture atypical for whatever area they were in.

  6. #15
    Does this (from Sion btw) look like a typical Neolithic farmer kind of thing to erect?



    That particular one is dated to the mid 3rd millenium BC, so it could be "Steppe" in origin, but others in the same style are earlier.

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  8. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    I'm Y DNA I, not R1b or anything like that.
    Okay, thanks.

    I have a number of ancestors whom I know from contact with cousins in those lines belonged to y-haplogroup I.
     


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    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36981 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982 >FGC36981)

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

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  10. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Does this (from Sion btw) look like a typical Neolithic farmer kind of thing to erect?



    That particular one is dated to the mid 3rd millenium BC, so it could be "Steppe" in origin, but others in the same style are earlier.
    Read what Harrison and Heyd wrote.

    Read Olalde et al, as well. The type of BB from the southwest, that is, from Iberia, was not of steppe origin, nor was there any R1b-M269 in it.
     


    Hidden Content


    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36981 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982 >FGC36981)

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

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  12. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    . . .

    Also, it isn't that L51 is absent in the West and arrives from the East - L51 just appears basically out of nowhere in roughly modern-day Germany . . .
    It appears as if out of nowhere in central Europe with steppe dna and as a brother clade to R1b-Z2103 under L23, which has been found in eastern Yamnaya.

    And it appears out of nowhere in two steppe-derived cultures: Kurgan Bell Beaker and Proto-Nagyrev. You know, riding horses and practicing steppe pastoralist practices.

    That's the trail east.

    As Gimbutas said, on page 390 of The Civilization of the Goddess:

    Quote Originally Posted by Marija Gimbutas
    The Bell Beaker culture of western Europe which diffused between 2500 and 2100 B.C. between central Europe, the British Isles, and the Iberian Peninsula, could not have arisen in a vacuum. The mobile horse-riding and warrior people who buried their dead in Yamna type kurgans certainly could not have developed out of any west European culture.
    Last edited by rms2; 01-07-2019 at 01:31 AM.
     


    Hidden Content


    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36981 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982 >FGC36981)

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

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  14. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    Another words, Maritime is not any earlier the All-Over-Corded beakers. Based on three radiocarbon dates, Lee (2012) states the following: "Kromsdorf dates firmly to the Late Neolithic (2,600–2,500 cal BC)." This is based on their dates of 2678–2547 cal BC, 2573–2511 cal BC and 2573–2511 cal BC.
    There are also 4 Bell Beaker single graves from France which are dated between 2850 and 2500 BC: Achenheim and Hégenheim from Alsace, Flévy from Lorraine and Blignicourt from Aube. For French Bell Beaker single graves see here.
    Last edited by Bernard; 01-07-2019 at 07:55 AM.

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  16. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bernard View Post
    There are also 4 Bell Beaker single graves from France which are dated between 2850 and 2500 BC: Achenheim and Hégenheim from Alsace, Flévy from Lorraine and Blignicourt from Aube. For French Bell Beaker single graves see here.
    Two Maritime Beakers in the Alsace and a AOC in Champagne.

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