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Thread: Why are most east Euros further from MLBA steppe than northern/western/central Euros?

  1. #1
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    Why are most east Euros further from MLBA steppe than northern/western/central Euros?

    I noticed this a while ago...This is unexpected considering that Sintashta was geographically most proximal to eastern Europe and that EMBA steppe(Yamnaya) was literally located over the Ukraine and Russia. Furthermore R1a, which was heavy among Sintashta if I recall correctly, is also quite prevalent in eastern Europe and less so in western. So why is this?

    Look at the Swedish, Icelandic, English, and German fits(6 and below) and now compare them to the eastern Europeans with the exception of Finns and you can deduce that they are higher(6 and above). 25% filter was used:

    Code:
    1	Sintashta_MLBA	Dutch:Average		5.433	Open Map	100
    2	Sintashta_MLBA	English:Average		5.9917	Open Map	100
    3	Sintashta_MLBA	Finnish:Average		5.3942	Open Map	100
    4	Sintashta_MLBA	Finnish_East:Average	6.8897	Open Map	100
    5	Sintashta_MLBA	German:Average		6.0991	Open Map	100
    6	Sintashta_MLBA	Icelandic:Average	5.0135	Open Map	100
    7	Sintashta_MLBA	Latvian:Average	        7.9234	Open Map	100
    8	Sintashta_MLBA	Lithuanian:Average	7.94	Open Map	100
    9	Sintashta_MLBA	Polish:Average		6.1861	Open Map	100
    10	Sintashta_MLBA	Russian_Smolensk:Average	6.8999	Open Map	100
    11	Sintashta_MLBA	Swedish:Average		4.915	Open Map	100
    12	Sintashta_MLBA	Ukrainian:Average	6.4994	Open Map	100

    Here's another example: Lithuanians lean heavily toward this thing called Baltic BA(no idea what it is) while Germans and Swedes lean much more towards Sintashta.

    Code:
    1	Baltic_BA +Globular_Amphora +Sintashta_MLBA	German:Average		1.7414	Open Map	5.83	32.5	61.67
    2	Baltic_BA +Globular_Amphora +Sintashta_MLBA	Lithuanian:Average	1.9616	Open Map	68.33	10	21.67
    3	Baltic_BA +Globular_Amphora +Sintashta_MLBA	Swedish:Average		1.9249	Open Map	13.33	24.17	62.5
    Last edited by Censored; 01-08-2019 at 06:23 AM.

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    Ethnic-specific genetic drift.

    Balto-Slavs are closely related to Baltic_BA, which was probably Proto-Baltic speaking.

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    Shows up, in outgroup f3 stats as well, though less obvious. The Sintashta outgroup f3 stat with Mbuti as outgroup has rank order: Lithuanian, Icelandic, Irish, Estonian, Norwegian, Scottish, Polish, Orcadian, English, German, Ukrainian, Finnish, Belarusian, Basque, Hungarian, French, and with Ust_Ishim as outgroup has order: Lithuanian, Orcadian, Scottish, Irish, English, Norwegian, Icelandic, Polish, Estonian, German, French, Belarusian, Basque, Hungarian, Ukrainian, North Italian. (The different outgroups more or less look to place a different weight on basal Eurasian/African ancestry and East Asian ancestry).

    I guess not an artefact of Global 25, but probably some subtle way in which influences of extra HG ancestry from Baltic or the Northern Russian Forest Zone (which shows up via Baltic BA) and then the Bronze Age Balkans have shifted populations, plus some of the very low level East Siberian / East Asian ancestry entering some NE European populations (most to some very low level, except for Polish). Or if an artefact then its a deeper artefact than the G25 and present in reference bias in how ancient dna is sampled by the labs.

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    I was interested in seeing how the Irish went with this and also myself.




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    I think because Balto-Slavs have more HG-related admixture(more WHG aswell as excessive EHG) than Western Euros who have significantly more Yamnaya-related heritage instead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Helves View Post
    I think because Balto-Slavs have more HG-related admixture(more WHG aswell as excessive EHG) than Western Euros who have significantly more Yamnaya-related heritage instead.
    well, not really: "Yamnaya-related heritage" is almost identical, it's the EEF- and HG-components,that do differ between NW and NE Euros.
    As for f3-stats and similar tools, the ethnic specific drift (some bottlenecks along the way during BA/IA with rather rapid expansion afterwards?) matters a lot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FenriR View Post
    well, not really: "Yamnaya-related heritage" is almost identical, it's the EEF- and HG-components,that do differ between NW and NE Euros.
    As for f3-stats and similar tools, the ethnic specific drift (some bottlenecks along the way during BA/IA with rather rapid expansion afterwards?) matters a lot.
    I think when the relevant non-IE population, with a ratio of WHG-EHG-EEF that works for modern day Balto-Salvs is sampled we will see their Yamnaya levels drop probably just a bit from what the 2015 Haak et al study showed.
    Right now using Davids spearsheet I can't get any good fits at all with a Steppe-HG-EEF run.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Helves View Post
    I think because Balto-Slavs have more HG-related admixture(more WHG aswell as excessive EHG) than Western Euros who have significantly more Yamnaya-related heritage instead.
    Balts seems to have some extra-HG admixture but other East Europeans don't seem to show a lot of it. Also Yamnaya-like ancestry is slightly higher in Eastern Europe. Scandinavians and Central-East Europeans (Ukrainians, Poles, Belarusians) have basically the same amount of steppe admixture. Lithuanians and populations in Central Russia score already significantly more
    Y-DNA: R1a> R-M417> R-Z645> R-Z93> R-Z94> R-Y3 (Sredny Stog culture)> R-L657> R-Y4(Andronovo)> R-Y6> R-Y5> R-Y920* (Pashtun)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    Balts seems to have some extra-HG admixture but other East Europeans don't seem to show a lot of it. Also Yamnaya-like ancestry is slightly higher in Eastern Europe. Scandinavians and Central-East Europeans (Ukrainians, Poles, Belarusians) have basically the same amount of steppe admixture. Lithuanians and populations in Central Russia score already significantly more
    Well this was posted a couple weeks ago and Yamnaya admix peaks in Scandinavia according to the spreadsheet and all Eastern Euros score extra ANE(=excessive EHG prob?).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Helves View Post
    Well this was posted a couple weeks ago and Yamnaya admix peaks in Scandinavia according to the spreadsheet and all Eastern Euros score extra ANE(=excessive EHG prob?).
    Slavs and neither NW Europeans are derived from these Yamnaya samples, who neither belonged to R1a or the R1b clade of modern day NW Europeans. They are derived from more western Yamnaya-like people who had more WHG-like admixture and less CHG-admixture
    Y-DNA: R1a> R-M417> R-Z645> R-Z93> R-Z94> R-Y3 (Sredny Stog culture)> R-L657> R-Y4(Andronovo)> R-Y6> R-Y5> R-Y920* (Pashtun)

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