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Thread: Why are most east Euros further from MLBA steppe than northern/western/central Euros?

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    Slavs and neither NW Europeans are derived from these Yamnaya samples, who neither belonged to R1a or the R1b clade of modern day NW Europeans. They are derived from more western Yamnaya-like people who had more WHG-like admixture.
    Even using the early R1a Baltic-CWC samples the fit is not good for modern day Balto-Slavs, infact the early Baltic_CWC are very close to the Yamnaya. It would be difficult to argue for that they don't derive from a population close to the R1b-Z103 Yamnaya samples we have so far.

    But I still do believe that when the proper population accounting for the non-Steppe part of NE Euros is sampled it will lower their Steppe/Yamnaya admixture just a bit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Helves View Post
    Even using the early R1a Baltic-CWC samples the fit is not good for modern day Balto-Slavs, infact the early Baltic_CWC are very close to the Yamnaya. It would be difficult to argue for that they don't derive from a population close to the R1b-Z103 Yamnaya samples we have so far.

    But I still do believe that when the proper population accounting for the non-Steppe part of NE Euros is sampled it will lower their Steppe/Yamnaya admixture just a bit.
    Early Baltic CWC is similar to Yamnaya but not identical it indeed has more western Hunter Gather admixture. Slavs are derived from Corded Ware and it seems that Corded Ware was derived from a more western steppe culture like Sredny Stog

    However, in my Principal Component Analysis (PCA) of ancient West Eurasia, all three samples fall just "northwest" of Yamnaya, along with one German Corded Ware outlier, and form a separate cluster that is shifted slightly closer to European hunter-gatherers and farmers. Hence, Plinkaigalis242 and Gyvakarai1 only form a clade with Yamnaya to the limit of the resolution in the analysis by Mittnik et al., but aren't exactly identical to Yamnaya. The relevant datasheet is available here.
    http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2018/0...m-genetic.html
    Y-DNA: R1a> R-M417> R-Z645> R-Z93> R-Z94> R-Y3 (Sredny Stog culture)> R-L657> R-Y4(Andronovo)> R-Y6> R-Y5> R-Y920* (Pashtun)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    Early Baltic CWC is similar to Yamnaya but not identical it indeed has more western Hunter Gather admixture. Slavs are derived from Corded Ware and it seems that Corded Ware was derived from a more western steppe culture like Sredny Stog

    http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2018/0...m-genetic.html
    I agree regarding the CWC, but my point is that it's not the various Steppe or Steppe-rich populations that are a bad fit for modern day NE Euros but their non-IE part that has probably not been sampled yet. Because even using the Sredny Stog R1a sample or the other CWC available the fit isn't nearly as good as for NW Euros.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Helves View Post
    Well this was posted a couple weeks ago and Yamnaya admix peaks in Scandinavia according to the spreadsheet and all Eastern Euros score extra ANE(=excessive EHG prob?).
    Are these results based on Global25?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Radboud View Post
    Are these results based on Global25?
    Yes, from the G25 spreadsheet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Helves View Post
    Yes, from the G25 spreadsheet.
    Is it possible for us with G25 coordinates to obtain results like the ones in that spreadsheet you linked?

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  13. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helves View Post
    I agree regarding the CWC, but my point is that it's not the various Steppe or Steppe-rich populations that are a bad fit for modern day NE Euros but their non-IE part that has probably not been sampled yet. Because even using the Sredny Stog R1a sample or the other CWC available the fit isn't nearly as good as for NW Euros.
    As the good General mentioned, drift will play a factor here too, particularly for the Slavic-speaking populations.

    It looks like a commonly accepted viewpoint among linguists that the Slavic languages still maintained a dialect continuum by the early Medieval period (a comparison of Old Church Slavonic with reconstructed proto-Slavic demonstrates this quite well). How intelligible these early Slavic dialects were is debated (reasonable to assume semi-intelligibility during the Roman period).

    The early Slavs, we can deduce, expanded rapidly from one location in Eastern Europe (where is also debated) and spread in all directions (including north - The pre-Russian language of Novgorod shows unique features suggestive of an unattested, earlier branch). Given the linguistic evidence above, it is prudent to consider substantial genetic drift as one of the explanations.

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    Coldmountains! I know you have eastern Slavic ancestry. From northern-central Ukraine on your Mum's side? She could be a southern Belarusian easily. On our fathers sides, we are different. You are z93 (Pushtun?), while I am z92 under z280 - eastern Slav.
    Last edited by Volat; 01-08-2019 at 09:12 PM.

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  17. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by J Man View Post
    Is it possible for us with G25 coordinates to obtain results like the ones in that spreadsheet you linked?
    Not sure. I think it's easy to replicate it yourself though, if you know how to use R.

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  19. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMXX View Post
    As the good General mentioned, drift will play a factor here too, particularly for the Slavic-speaking populations.

    It looks like a commonly accepted viewpoint among linguists that the Slavic languages still maintained a dialect continuum by the early Medieval period (a comparison of Old Church Slavonic with reconstructed proto-Slavic demonstrates this quite well). How intelligible these early Slavic dialects were is debated (reasonable to assume semi-intelligibility during the Roman period).

    The early Slavs, we can deduce, expanded rapidly from one location in Eastern Europe (where is also debated) and spread in all directions (including north - The pre-Russian language of Novgorod shows unique features suggestive of an unattested, earlier branch). Given the linguistic evidence above, it is prudent to consider substantial genetic drift as one of the explanations.
    Yes, but will the genetic drift have this big of a role that I can get a fit under 3(with nMonte) for NW Euros using the various Steppe-rich samples(BB, CWC) available whilst the same runs give terrible fits for Balts and other NE Euros?
    How can modern day Balto-Slavs rich in R1a-M417 not share the same amount of drift with the CWC samples the same way NW Euros do with the Bell Beakers?

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