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Thread: Brainstorming Y6923 - a deeply diverged Ashkenazi big group with links to the Med.

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    Brainstorming Y6923 - a deeply diverged Ashkenazi big group with links to the Med.

    5.5% of Ashkenazim, including myself, belong to Y6923, a downstream subclade of E-L791, the smaller of E-M34's 2 primary branches. Y6923's deeply diverged from its sister subclade, Y4972 (which based on a small number of samples, seems to be represented in the Mediterranean, Armenia, France, and Arabia, including among Romaniote Jews), the split estimated at 5,500 BP. Until recently, Y6923 itself had reliable link to the non-Ashkenazi world.

    Now we know that Y6923 itself is not an Ashkenazi marker per se, but rather, that its predominant subclade, Y6938, is (to my knowledge, no non-Ashkenazim have been asssigned to it). This year, a sister branch to Y6938—Y102667—was identified, uniting a Puerto Rican sample from FTDNA and a Libyan Jewish sample from a published paper. The split between these two lines is estimated to about 400 CE. (See tree here.)

    Unfortunately the one or two people who've historically managed our subclade project have been AWOL, and everyone else claims to be too uninformed to play with the possibilities here. My hope is that we can start to form some hypotheses (based on very limited data) about the path of Y6938 on its way into the founding Ashkenazi community, the possible distribution of Y6923 farther afield (in subclade-untested populations), and the ultimate origins of Y6923 (null hypothesis being in Judea, but no reason to bank on it).

    Some thoughts:

    The Puerto Rican link is proof that, like several other large and small Ashkenazi branches, Y6923 has a link to Spain—presumably Jews in Spain—within the last 1,500 years. Unlike some in the jewishdna.net community, I do not take this as proof of an origin for the subclade in Spain, prior to its migration to medieval Ashkenaz. Given the structure and dates (Y6938 and Y102667 as sibling branches), I would guess that this suggests a common ancestry for Y6923 Ashkenazim and our Y6923 Puerto Rican cousin in some other Mediterranean location, some time during the late classical period. The structural bifurcation suggests strongly that the origin of Y6923 in Spain is not the result of an Ashkenazi migration to Sepharad, though this mechanism of Jewish panmixia is generally underrated.

    Meanwhile, the Libyan Jewish link, which is an even newer discovery, raises its own set of additional questions. Is Libyan Jewish Y6923 (which sits on the same branch, Y102667, as the Puerto Rican individual) of pre-Sephardic Libyan Jewish origin, or is it an import from Spain? To that question, does anyone know what share of the Libyan Jewish gene pool we might assume is the result of Sephardic migrations? (I also seem to remember a very early Jewish uniparentals paper that demonstrated a high rate of E-M123 in Libyan Jews relative to most other Jewish groups—I wonder how much of this would turn out to be Y6923.) If it's an import from Spain, then the questions in the last paragraph apply. If not, seeking a common ancestor for Y6923 in Ashkenaz, Sepharad, and Libya becomes much more interesting. Someone in a recent thread responded to me by suggesting an Alexandrian connection, which would certainly be interesting. What I'd like to see is deep subclade testing of all E-M34 Jews (or, to make it easier, all E-M34 xM84 Jews), followed by the same for other Mediterranean populations (especially Cypriots, as we've addressed before, and Palestinians, for obvious reasons).

    Another ideal goal: I'm not sure if any other Jewish subclade junkies have been able to correlate internal substructure of their subclades with intra-Ashkenazi migration patterns, but I'm holding out hope that it'll be possible. So far, nothing suggestive, but 5 main branches of Z36123 (itself directly downstream of Y6938) have been characterized. Curiously, I'm negative for 4 of the 5, and the 5th isn't available yet on YSEQ.

    Thoughts? Would love collaboration and hints on this deep dive.

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    8F35AF8B-1149-445C-983C-D987619C55E5.jpegSmall sample sizes, not dispositive at all, but here’s an image from Shen et al 2004 on Jewish Diaspora and Samaritan uniparentals. Note the Ashkenazi/Libyan dynamic. Can we find some Libyan Jewish M34’s out there and YSEQ them for $20 a pop?

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    hartaisarlag, as you noted, completely Ashkenzi subclade is E-Y6938 only. E-Y102667 seems to be Sephardic one.
    I also expect other E-Y6923 (Y6938-, Y102667-) guys with Levantine (Canaanite), but non-Jewish origin, who will form new old downstream branches of E-Y6923. Formation period of E-Y6923 is 4rd millenium BC, epoch of Khirbet Kerak,

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    Farroukh, I’ve seen you around at the Haplozone forum (a slow place, alas). Wish more people were thinking about Y6923 and adjacent subclades (Y4972, Y2947) - and curious to hear any thoughts you might have.

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    Now we have no enough information for more detailed conclusions. I only know E-Y6923 is too old to be specific Jewish haplogroup, it surely spreaded among other peolpes of Levant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Farroukh View Post
    Now we have no enough information for more detailed conclusions. I only know E-Y6923 is too old to be specific Jewish haplogroup, it surely spreaded among other peolpes of Levant.
    Wonder what the best way of looking for proof is. So far not a single direct link, unlike the major Ashkenazi M84 group.

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    My speculative opinion is based on some following points:
    1) North African Jews are mixture of Spanish Sephardic groups (migrated during 15-16th centuries) and local converted people (Giyur ceremony). Sure, they include both E-M34 and E-M81
    2) Maximum percentage of E-M34 Jewish subclades is on E-M84 branch
    3) Others are E-Z841 carriers, including our subject (E-Y6923)
    4) Some of modern E-Y6923 carriers are "Marranos"/"Donme" (descendants of Jews converted into Christianity/Islam)

    Most interesting will be aDNA samples from Canaanite countries

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    Quote Originally Posted by Farroukh View Post
    My speculative opinion is based on some following points:
    1) North African Jews are mixture of Spanish Sephardic groups (migrated during 15-16th centuries) and local converted people (Giyur ceremony). Sure, they include both E-M34 and E-M81
    2) Maximum percentage of E-M34 Jewish subclades is on E-M84 branch
    3) Others are E-Z841 carriers, including our subject (E-Y6923)
    4) Some of modern E-Y6923 carriers are "Marranos"/"Donme" (descendants of Jews converted into Christianity/Islam)

    Most interesting will be aDNA samples from Canaanite countries
    Agree on all points except no. 1. I would bet that larger than either of those two components, at least among Tunisian, Libyan, and Egyptian Jews, is a pre-Sephardic Levantine ancestry (which blended, of course, with pagan Berbers in some proportion). Moroccan and Algerian Jews have much more distinctively Euro-Mediterranean origin, indicative of predominantly Sephardic origins. No one’s put a good number on it though.

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    Also, does anyone know anything about Semargl? jewishdna.net lists Y-67 STR matches via Semargl, one of which for Y6923 reports a Tunisian origin. A kit number is reported, but it looks like Semargl’s been offline for years. Any way I could hunt down this kit’s bearer?

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    Unfortunately, Semargl database was deactivated due to privacy laws.

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