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Thread: Brainstorming Y6923 - a deeply diverged Ashkenazi big group with links to the Med.

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farroukh View Post
    Yes, the divergence point approx. fits with times of Exodus from Egypt.
    Which cannot be treated like a historical event. Now, on the other hand, the end of the Middle Bronze Age, which might have involved an influx of Hyksos (one possible layer of influence on the Exodus story), seems like it might’ve been an important moment for population dynamics in the southern Levant.

    Someone can correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems too early to conclude which periods in Bronze Age Levantine (can we say Canaanite before MB?) history were characterized by the most genomically measurable population turnover. I look forward to the possibility, which is within reach.
    Last edited by hartaisarlag; 09-12-2019 at 01:51 AM.
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  3. #32
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    Yes, we still have no archeological confirmation of massive and long-term migration from Egypt to Canaan. But it doesn't mean "Exodus is fake".

    For example, we also have no archeological confirmation of Gypsy ("Domba") migration from India to Europe. But undoubtedly it was real.

    I think more interesting is to find aDNA sample from that region.

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  5. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by hartaisarlag View Post
    I don't think the Muslim Gulf Arabs who are Y6926+ are descended from Jews—I think their line diverged from Canaanites during the Bronze Age.
    I have to somewhat revise my statement here, if the new YFull divergence date is to be trusted (again, it is only based on one Y6926* individual, and the addition of others I've seen might not be particularly helpful, as they're all relatively close relatives). Now we are seeing 3100 ybp, rather than 3700 ybp, which is the difference between an MBA divergence and an Iron I divergence. By 1100 BCE, it is fair to say there was a group we could call (at least retroactively) proto-Israelites. If Abu Y6926 was a proto-Israelite or a member of some adjacent, then this Gulf clan is descended from Israelites (or some adjacent group). But he easily might not have been.

    Maybe this favors a seminomadic/Transjordanian origin marginally over an urban Canaanite origin? Very, very early to say, but fun that we can start.
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    To any who are interested: a New Mexican with roots going back to 17th century Ciudad JuŠrez/El Paso has tested positive for Y6923, but negative for both Y6938 and Y102667. The structure of this subclade just got a lot more interesting. The way I see it, there are 4 active possibilities, which we'll hopefully be able to test using YFull:

    1) This new individual forms a branch coequal with Y6938 and Y102667
    2) He forms a basal branch in opposition to a branch uniting Y6938 and Y102667 (there might be circumstantial proof for this in the fact that he has no listed STR matches closer than Y12)
    3) He forms a basal branch joining him with Y6938 in opposition to Y102667
    4) He forms a basal branch joining him with Y102667 in opposition to Y6938

    Whatever the case, this makes it likelier that Iberia plays an important role in the story—just how important is to be determined.
    Last edited by hartaisarlag; 01-22-2020 at 09:17 PM.
    The clock indicates the momentóbut what does eternity indicate?

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    The E-Y102667 clade now has SNP-confirmed members of Tunisian Jewish, Libyan Jewish, Sicilian, and Puerto Rican origin. There are additional non-SNP-confirmed likely branch members from each of these 4 groups, plus an Algerian Jew.
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  9. #36
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    Another twist:

    Besides Y6938, Y102667, and the unnamed New Mexican-defined branch, we've turned up a 4th branch of E-Y6923. The exemplar: an American man of ethnic German roots with an MDKA in the Moselle region of Lorraine, just about 45 km from the early proto-Ashkenazi center of Metz. No autosomal trace of recent Jewish ancestry.

    Notably, E-Y6938, despite over a thousand exemplars, has none from the Jewish communities of Alsace-Lorraine, and just a handful from all of Germany. This new branch seems to have arrived north of the Alps via a different root than E-Y6938.
    Last edited by hartaisarlag; 08-16-2020 at 10:27 PM.
    The clock indicates the momentóbut what does eternity indicate?

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    Hello Hartaisarlag previously you stated: "The structural bifurcation suggests strongly that the origin of Y6923 in Spain is not the result of an Ashkenazi migration to Sepharad,".

    In the thread I created: The case for E-M123* (without E-M34 coming out of Israel, Specifically), my last post might be of interest to you. There, I "speculate" on the subject from information I have gathered and others research which I have used to build my little puzzle theory upon, as a not very experienced in the field hobbyist; however, I must state that to me it is very clear.

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    Now there's a 5th branch, defined by a Sephardi from Rhodes. This pattern—a late classical (ca. 400 CE) split into 5 branches across the Western Jewish world—is something that hasn't shown up elsewhere, yet. Might offer hints about what's to come for other Jewish Y-DNA lineages.
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    So called legendary "King for a day" (Saul Wahl Katzenellenbogen, b. 1541 and d. 1617) seems to be E-M34 There are two ravvinistic lineages of Katzenellenbogen (E-M84 and E-Y6923). We do not know exactly who among them was "the same king" but claiming him as E-M34 is the best compromise

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    Quote Originally Posted by Farroukh View Post
    So called legendary "King for a day" (Saul Wahl Katzenellenbogen, b. 1541 and d. 1617) seems to be E-M34 There are two ravvinistic lineages of Katzenellenbogen (E-M84 and E-Y6923). We do not know exactly who among them was "the same king" but claiming him as E-M34 is the best compromise
    Interesting! I am technically a descendant of his, as I'm sure many tens of thousands of EAJs are as well. Where did you find out he is E-M34? Most Katzenellenbogens that claim descent from the famous Rabbinical line are in J-BY101 (would be J-ZS1706* on YFull). There are no famous Rabbinical lineages in E-M84 > Y14891, yet there are a few in E-Y6923 > Y6938.

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