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Thread: Brainstorming Y6923 - a deeply diverged Ashkenazi big group with links to the Med.

  1. #11
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    Azerbaijan Iran Safavid Empire
    Ashkenazic downstream branch of E-Y6923 is labeled as E-Y6938, formed 1600 years ago, TMRCA 1350 years.

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  3. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farroukh View Post
    Ashkenazic downstream branch of E-Y6923 is labeled as E-Y6938, formed 1600 years ago, TMRCA 1350 years.
    Yes, to date Y6938 is the exclusively Ashkenazi marker.

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    Some news:

    1. A Tunisian Jew whose known paternal line runs through Turkey, as well as an unidentified individual from Algeria (I would guess Jewish) have tested as Y6923+ and Y6938-. The Tunisian-Turkish Jew is supposedly pretty distantly removed from the Puerto Rican (converso-origin?) at Y102667, which suggests he might be Y102667-.

    2. A new clade (Y6926) defined by 15 unique SNPs has shown up on FTDNA's Y Haplotree between Y4971 and Y6923. So far the defining individuals (Y6926+ Y6923-) have not been identified with any information, including nation of origin.

    Both of these updates have the potential to significantly clarify the story of Y6923, an important Jewish Diaspora lineage that now seems to comprise both Ashkenazim and Sephardim (whether its bent toward North African Jews is a sampling artifact or evidence of a real pattern is hard to say). Waiting with bated breath to find out more about the Y6926+ Y6923- individuals.

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    Moreover:

    3. One of the Y6926+ Y6923- individuals has shown up in the FTDNA E-M35 mega-group, and while he's still unidentified, he clusters with 3 Emiratis and an Omani, all from the same family/clan.
    Last edited by hartaisarlag; 06-05-2019 at 11:10 PM.

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    Unfortunately I can't get any thoughts out of the people in the Y6923 project @ FTDNA. Does anyone else find this problem in their subclade investigations?

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    Quote Originally Posted by hartaisarlag View Post
    Some news:

    1. A Tunisian Jew whose known paternal line runs through Turkey, as well as an unidentified individual from Algeria (I would guess Jewish) have tested as Y6923+ and Y6938-. The Tunisian-Turkish Jew is supposedly pretty distantly removed from the Puerto Rican (converso-origin?) at Y102667, which suggests he might be Y102667-.

    2. A new clade (Y6926) defined by 15 unique SNPs has shown up on FTDNA's Y Haplotree between Y4971 and Y6923. So far the defining individuals (Y6926+ Y6923-) have not been identified with any information, including nation of origin.

    Both of these updates have the potential to significantly clarify the story of Y6923, an important Jewish Diaspora lineage that now seems to comprise both Ashkenazim and Sephardim (whether its bent toward North African Jews is a sampling artifact or evidence of a real pattern is hard to say). Waiting with bated breath to find out more about the Y6926+ Y6923- individuals.
    Turns out our Turkish-Tunisian Jew is Y102667+.

    His claim of direct paternal origins in the Turkish Jewish community is curious to me—there is no specific location attached to the datum, and the surname he was known by (which his descendant carries) is almost certainly of North African provenance. How often would Jews from Turkey have migrated to Tunisia in the early 19th century - does anyone have an idea?

    I ask because the implications are somewhat different depending on whether or not there's an authentic origin outside of North Africa.

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    Further updates:

    1. Wim Penninx confirms that based on STR distance from the unidentified Y6926+ Y6923- individual, it's extremely likely that the same-clan cluster of Emiratis and Omanis (plus other unidentified individuals) is Y6926+. Considering that up until now, Y6923's closest relation, Y4972, shared a common ancestor with it in the 4th millennium BCE, and included Gulf Arabs, French, Italians, Greeks, Greek Jews, Armenians, and Russians, this is real progress.

    2. I've also been notified of the existence of two *predicted* Y6923+ Y6938- individuals: a Mexican and a Peruvian. They would definitely fit the emerging pattern of Y6923+ Y6938- as a Sephardic (or at least non-Ashkenazic Western Jewish) lineage, especially if confirmed Y102667+.

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    The latest:

    YFull is reporting that of the 3 confirmed Y102667+ individuals, 2—the Puerto Rican and the Turkish-Tunisian Jew—are now characterized by a pair of newly identified SNPs, Y99093 and BY92944 (and as such are now assigned to the branch E-Y99093). These are given a TMRCA of 550 CE.

    The Libyan Jew is negative for these SNPs, and remains E-Y102667*. Y102667's TMRCA has been updated to 350 CE.

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  17. #19
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    Updates:

    The Puerto Rican and Turkish-Tunisian Jew's subclade TMRCA has been bumped up to 650 CE, and Y102667's to 400 CE.

    Y6923's TMRCA stands at 400 CE, but what's most immediately relevant to questions about Ashkenazi ethnogenesis is that Y6938 has a TMRCA of 700 CE. The average TMRCA of the 10 biggest Ashkenazi branches is 670 CE, with a range of +/- 250 years or so. These dates are all based on YFull's methods, of course. If someone can give a good reason to prefer another estimation method, I'll revise my assumptions.



    Next door to Y6923, at Y4972, I've found some interesting things that I had never picked up on before.

    YFull identifies its main branch as K257, with a TMRCA of 2900 BCE. Under K257 on YFull's tree is one Sardinian at K257*, and a large, structured branch at Y4970, which includes Europeans (including the Bonapartes) and Arabs.

    But: FTDNA's haplotree identifies 10 K257* individuals: 2 Germans (Jews?), an Italian (that Sardinian?), an Iraqi, an Armenian, a Portuguese, a Venezuelan, a Canadian, a Spaniard, and of most interest to me, a Palestinian with roots in the Nablus district.

    Hopefully some more downstream structure is identified here. Either way, this makes for the closest explicitly non-Jewish Levantine connection to Y6923, although I expect closer ones to emerge.



    Also, relevant to the L791 discussion that's happened in connection to the Polish-like Viking individual, it turns out I was wrong about Y2947 being exclusively attested in Europeans. There is a Lebanese individual nestled among a few Russians/Chuvashes, in an otherwise heavily West Med branch. Don't ask me to explain. Farroukh, I see you noticed this awhile ago and have speculated about it.

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    Updates:

    1. The Y6926+ individual's last name confirms the hypothesis that he is Arab. Unfortunately, no country of origin indicated.
    2. I count 9 or 10 very close STR matches in the database; for all who have tested at least 111 markers, it is clear that the common ancestor is within the last 500 years. All but 1 or 2 of these men are from the same Southeast Arabian clan. Hoping at least one is waiting for Big Y results to come in.

    It is also clear from running a SNP predictor that there are several Middle Eastern L791 individuals who cannot be securely placed into any of its existing subclades. Hopefully some of these guys have done Big Y recently.

    I also saw an old thread suggesting that Y6923 might have been found in the Cypriot sample from Heraclides et al. I ran Nevgen on the suggested individuals, and Y6923 did not come up.
    The clock indicates the moment—but what does eternity indicate?

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