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Thread: Brainstorming Y6923 - a deeply diverged Ashkenazi big group with links to the Med.

  1. #41
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    Most Katzenellenbogens that claim descent from the famous Rabbinical line are in J-BY101 (would be J-ZS1706* on YFull). There are no famous Rabbinical lineages in E-M84 > Y14891, yet there are a few in E-Y6923 > Y6938.
    http://www.avotaynuonline.com/2016/0...nical-lineage/

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    Right, this study was the one that found that "most Katzenellenbogens that claim descent from the famous Rabbinical line are in J-BY101." Is there actually any evidence of him being E-M34 instead?

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  5. #43
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    Hi Farroukh
    i have seen one sample of Ruba from Poland on Y DNA E-PF2431 under E-FGC18981

  8. #45
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    Is there any particular historical event one could potentially correlate with the Sepheradi and Ashkenazi branches splitting off?


    From what I've seen on Yfull and read here, the two branches' most recent common ancestor dates to somewhere around 400 AD.


    So is it possible that the split is somehow related to the fall of the Western Roman Empire, the collapse of the age-old Mediterranean trade routes, and the subsequent isolation of Jewish communities from each other across the former Roman world?

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  10. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by altvred View Post
    Is there any particular historical event one could potentially correlate with the Sepheradi and Ashkenazi branches splitting off?


    From what I've seen on Yfull and read here, the two branches' most recent common ancestor dates to somewhere around 400 AD.


    So is it possible that the split is somehow related to the fall of the Western Roman Empire, the collapse of the age-old Mediterranean trade routes, and the subsequent isolation of Jewish communities from each other across the former Roman world?
    Good question! It does seem like c. 300-500 CE was a major point for Western Jewry ethnogenesis and the subsequent scattering of populations, as supported by several TMRCAs between major Ashkenazi and Sephardi (as well as other groups') lineages to that date range. That said, there are also several with a much later TMRCA, being within 700-900 CE. In that sense, it's not just one "particular historical event" that denotes the Ashkenazi-Sephardi split, but rather eventual divergence of streams over many hundreds of years with some constant back-and-forth through all time periods.

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  12. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by leorcooper19 View Post
    Good question! It does seem like c. 300-500 CE was a major point for Western Jewry ethnogenesis and the subsequent scattering of populations, as supported by several TMRCAs between major Ashkenazi and Sephardi (as well as other groups') lineages to that date range. That said, there are also several with a much later TMRCA, being within 700-900 CE. In that sense, it's not just one "particular historical event" that denotes the Ashkenazi-Sephardi split, but rather eventual divergence of streams over many hundreds of years with some constant back-and-forth through all time periods.
    You are definitely correct in saying that this isn't the outcome of a single historical event; that would be a gross oversimplification of what probably was a prolonged and complicated process.

    We can maybe classify the 4th century as the beginning of the process that would split the Western Jewish diaspora.

    By the time Ashkenazi Jews reached Eastern Europe during the late Middle Ages, there was no direct contact with Sephardic communities beyond possible communications between the Rabbinical leadership. There already was a distinct Ashkenazi and Spanish Nusach (rite of prayer).

    So by the 15th century, the separation was undoubtedly concluded.

    Can you mention other patrilineal markers shared by Sepheradi and Ashkenazi Jews? I'm only really aware of Y6923 being an example of that because it's my great grandfather's haplogroup.

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    Quote Originally Posted by altvred View Post
    Can you mention other patrilineal markers shared by Sepheradi and Ashkenazi Jews? I'm only really aware of Y6923 being an example of that because it's my great grandfather's haplogroup.
    Sure. I'll share what seem to be the most interesting lineages of the bigger Ashkenazi ones and break them up into TMRCA ranges.

    Ancient Israelite:
    J-Y6384 - A small, solely Sephardi lineage connects with the larger pan-Western Jewish clade of J-ZS4306 at a TMRCA of c. 700 BCE
    J-Y3088 > Z18271 - A huge Jewish lineage with several independent Ashkenazi and Sephardi lineages that connect at a TMRCA of c. 1000 - 800 BCE

    Mid-late classical:
    E-Y6923 - see above
    J-ZS1670 - A Mexican connects to an otherwise solely Ashkenazi lineage at c. 250 CE
    J-ZS2439 - A Latino connects to an Ashkenazi lineage at c. 150 CE
    J-ZS2616 - A Mexican connects to an Ashkenazi lineage at c. 50 CE
    J-Y5400 - A Peruvian connects to a major Ashkenazi lineage (the source of old Cohen-Modal-Haplotype fame) at c. 400 CE

    Early medieval (450 - 700 CE)
    J-L254 - A Moroccan Jew connects to a large Ashkenazi lineage at c. 600 CE
    J-Z43501 - A Puerto Rican connects to a large Ashkenazi lineage at c. 650 CE
    R-Y5051 - Several Iberians connect to a large Ashkenazi lineage at c. 500 CE
    R-Y19847 - Several Latin Americans connect to a medium-sized Ashkenazi lineage at c. 650 CE
    Q-Y2200 > BZ72 - Sephardim and several likely conversos connect to a large Ashkenazi lineage at c. 650 CE, nested within the major Ashkenazi lineage of Q-Y2200
    J-L823 - Several Mexicans connect to a medium-sized Ashkenazi lineage at c. 500-600 CE (not on YFull)

    Medieval (700 - 1000 CE)
    J-L816 - Italo-Romaniote and Balkan Sephardi connect to a major Ashkenazi lineage at c. 850 CE
    G-FGC228 - Moroccan Jew and Turk connect to a large Ashkenazi lineage at c. 900 CE
    R-V3476 - Mixed Sephardi and converso clade connects to two Ashkenazi lineages at c. 850 CE

    Late medieval / early modern (probable Sephardi > Ashkenazi introgressions)
    J-FGC5206 - a young (c. 1350 CE) yet medium-sized Ashkenazi lineage with two uncle branches of solely Iberian origin that connect to c. 650 CE.
    R-FGC21016 - a young (c. 1350 CE) yet medium-sized Ashkenazi lineage connects with an older Sephardi-converso branch at c. 600 CE.
    J-Z39653 - a young (c. 1300 CE) yet medium-sized Ashkenazi lineage connects with a Colombian and a Paradesi (Sephardic Jew from India) at c. 900 CE.
    E-BY8536 - a young (c. 1600 CE) and small Ashkenazi lineage connects to a Moroccan Jew at c. 1000 CE.

    This is NOT an exhaustive list and there are several more I could add in each category, but these are in my opinion the best and clearest examples of Ashkenazi-Sephardi splits at each time-frame. As you can see the two populations share ancestors at every point in their history, and thus were never totally separated.

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  16. #49
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    E-Y6923 branch of Katzellenbogens traced to Joel Ashkenazi, who married Saul's sister and his descendants accepted maternal surname.

    One of them became Rebbe of Lubavitch, his branch at Yfull:
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY165390/

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