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Thread: have the Frenchs celt DNA ?

  1. #11
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    I wish France wasn't that much behind in Ancient DNA studies. But at least now it's getting better.

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  3. #12
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    Irish generally all come from the same source population, or at least the one formed 2500 BC or thereabouts with very little immigration afterwards. I don't think quite the same thing can be said for Iberia, which has more influence from the Middle East and north Africa, as well as the much earlier Neolithic Iberian population. That said, there are definitely some Iberians who happen to resemble British-Irish or French (rapper Pitbull for example). It's clear the migration was north to south initially to an existing Iberian population, not a mass exodus from the south, which the DNA doesn't support.
    YDNA: R1b-Z220 (A7066+) (1800's Stepney, London(Bethnal Green), UK George Wood b. 1782
    maternal-grandfather YDNA: prob. I1 Gurr, George 1843, Feversham, Kent, England.
    maternal-grandmother YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    maternal-ggrandfather YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton mdka Ireland(?) < 1800s

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  5. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by ADW_1981 View Post
    Irish generally all come from the same source population, or at least the one formed 2500 BC or thereabouts with very little immigration afterwards. I don't think quite the same thing can be said for Iberia, which has more influence from the Middle East and north Africa, as well as the much earlier Neolithic Iberian population. That said, there are definitely some Iberians who happen to resemble British-Irish or French (rapper Pitbull for example). It's clear the migration was north to south initially to an existing Iberian population, not a mass exodus from the south, which the DNA doesn't support.
    No one takes it seriously now but the person who started the thread had just joined and started making a ton of posts like you'd find on any of the lightly moderated anthropology forums that were popular over a decade ago including "classify x person" type stuff.

    The idea of Ireland/Iberia being connected has two major strands as far as i can tell it's idea that because Roman names for the Iberian peninsula was Hiberia and for Ireland it was Hibernia they must be related. The other writing on the topic is no doubt inspired by that is that Ireland was repopulated from the Iberian refugium and that makes them related or something.

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  7. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by xenus View Post
    No one takes it seriously now but the person who started the thread had just joined and started making a ton of posts like you'd find on any of the lightly moderated anthropology forums that were popular over a decade ago including "classify x person" type stuff.

    The idea of Ireland/Iberia being connected has two major strands as far as i can tell it's idea that because Roman names for the Iberian peninsula was Hiberia and for Ireland it was Hibernia they must be related. The other writing on the topic is no doubt inspired by that is that Ireland was repopulated from the Iberian refugium and that makes them related or something.
    Neolithic traditions could very well be preserved in the Irish corpus and evidently the Isles had a Spanish-like population.
    My 23andMe kit into Eurogenes K36 then oracle (thanks to lukaszM):

    nMonte restricted: Ireland 48.05, SW-England 20.95, Finnish East 20.05, Russian Tver 3.70, Latvian 3.15, Mari 1.90, Lithuanian 1.30, French Basque 0.90, Orcadian 0.00

    nMonte full: Ireland 45.70, Finnish East 20.05, SW-England 20.05, Russian Tver 4.10, Orcadian 3.05, Latvian 2.45, Mari 1.95, Lithuanian 1.45, French Basque 1.00, W-England 0.15, Belarusian East 0.05

    Maternal uncle: R1b-U152

  8. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nibelung View Post
    Neolithic traditions could very well be preserved in the Irish corpus and evidently the Isles had a Spanish-like population.
    I think the oldest written account of the tradition of Iberian migration that exists is the compilation Historia Brittonum shakily attributed to the Welsh monk Nennius. It's also an early source regarding some of the material found in Arthurian legends.

    The type of identification of the Irish with Iberians due to the Greco-Roman names Hiberia and Hibernia being similar is also the type of identification we find for the Scottish and Scythians (also iirc from Nennius)

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  10. #16
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    I think there is very likely a lot of remote old beliefs, bias, false science behind the question of the OP. But it's always what happens when it comes to French genetic landscape, overall from people who have still confidence in the phenotypes. For the anecdote, in the early days of the protest movement of the "Gilets Jaunes" ("Yellow vests"), photos of the protest leader Ingrid Levavasseur multiplied on blogs and forums devoted to "racial classification", with questions like "Is she Nordid, Celto-nordid", or "Is this young woman really French"? For those who don't know I. L., she is a Norman, very redhead with pale blue eyes and seemingly a rather dolichocephalic skull ( and btw if I replace the red hair with pale blond I seem to see photos of my own mother in her young years). Clearly, for many people on these blogs, she simply cannot be French. The truth is that her phenotype is nothing unusual in Normandy. Does she have the "Irish-Iberian type"? In my opinion, she has a Megalithic-WHG-NorthWesternBellBeaker-Urnfield-Celtic-Frankish-Saxon-Anglo-Scandinavian(-add some others I forgot)-type.
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  12. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by anglesqueville View Post
    I think there is very likely a lot of remote old beliefs, bias, false science behind the question of the OP. But it's always what happens when it comes to French genetic landscape, overall from people who have still confidence in the phenotypes. For the anecdote, in the early days of the protest movement of the "Gilets Jaunes" ("Yellow vests"), photos of the protest leader Ingrid Levavasseur multiplied on blogs and forums devoted to "racial classification", with questions like "Is she Nordid, Celto-nordid", or "Is this young woman really French"?
    Remember some comments about the 3 winners of Miss France contest from Nord Pas de Calais: too Nordic to be French (Camille Cerf and Maeva Coucke are natural blonde).

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  14. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by xenus View Post
    I think the oldest written account of the tradition of Iberian migration that exists is the compilation Historia Brittonum shakily attributed to the Welsh monk Nennius. It's also an early source regarding some of the material found in Arthurian legends.

    The type of identification of the Irish with Iberians due to the Greco-Roman names Hiberia and Hibernia being similar is also the type of identification we find for the Scottish and Scythians (also iirc from Nennius)
    also Cornouailles/Kernow/ Cornwall/Cornouaille /Kernev (SW Brittany); Dumnonia/Devon/Domnonée (north of Brittany in the early middle ages)

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  16. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by anglesqueville View Post
    I think there is very likely a lot of remote old beliefs, bias, false science behind the question of the OP. But it's always what happens when it comes to French genetic landscape, overall from people who have still confidence in the phenotypes. For the anecdote, in the early days of the protest movement of the "Gilets Jaunes" ("Yellow vests"), photos of the protest leader Ingrid Levavasseur multiplied on blogs and forums devoted to "racial classification", with questions like "Is she Nordid, Celto-nordid", or "Is this young woman really French"? For those who don't know I. L., she is a Norman, very redhead with pale blue eyes and seemingly a rather dolichocephalic skull ( and btw if I replace the red hair with pale blond I seem to see photos of my own mother in her young years). Clearly, for many people on these blogs, she simply cannot be French. The truth is that her phenotype is nothing unusual in Normandy. Does she have the "Irish-Iberian type"? In my opinion, she has a Megalithic-WHG-NorthWesternBellBeaker-Urnfield-Celtic-Frankish-Saxon-Anglo-Scandinavian(-add some others I forgot)-type.
    and bretons are likely to be short, dark hair and olive skin. Actually, it's not the whole truth. They can be so or not.
    It would be fun to post anonymous photos and ask which ethnicity or nationality these people belong to.
    I bet on a high rate of errors.

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  18. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by rozenfeld View Post
    I wish France wasn't that much behind in Ancient DNA studies. But at least now it's getting better.
    Yep, but at a snail's pace...

    Nevertheless we are making progress. Below part of the conclusion from a recent (incomplete) study on French ancient DNA in Northwestern France:

    The second genetic continuity measured with extant populations would, to a certain extent, support an idea still found in current French scholarly books: “Our ancestors the Gauls.”
    https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0207459

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