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Thread: Eurogenes Blog: Hungarian Yamnaya > Bell Beakers?

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    Eurogenes Blog: Hungarian Yamnaya > Bell Beakers?

    There's an interesting discussion going on about "Yamnaya-related, R1b-P312-rich northern Bell Beakers" among other things
    https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?bl...1&isPopup=true

    Some of the comments from Davidski/Generalissmo include:
    One of the oldest individuals in the ancient DNA record belonging to R1b-P312 is I5748, a Beaker dated to 2579–2233 calBCE from the Oostwoud-Tuithoorn burial site in what is now West Frisia, The Netherlands. Interestingly, this part of Northwestern Europe was home to the Single Grave population shortly before I5748 was alive. And the Single Grave culture is a variant of the Corded Ware culture. So can anyone tell me if there's any evidence that I5748 and his kind were relative newcomers to West Frisia, from, say, somewhere in the direction of the Carpathian Basin? If not, then what are the chances that northern Beakers are by and large the descendants of the Single Grave people?
    I'll leave you with this map from a recent paper by French archeologist and Beaker expert Olivier Lemercier (see here). To me it suggests rather strongly that northern Beakers developed from the synthesis of Corded Ware newcomers to Western Europe and indigenous Western Europeans. As far as I can tell, that's what the paper basically argues as well.
    Grey said...
    1) if movement along river valleys is a factor in this then two initially closely related populations who started out relatively close to each other but centered on two different river valleys might have two very distinct end points.
    Slumbery said...@Synome This is what I wrote about earlier in this topic. G25 nMontes says that northern Beaker population do not have any significant Balkan farmer ancestry. In fact even in Beaker Hungary Globular Amphora is overwhelming against Vucedol, even if I use the steppe admixed Vucedol sample.


    From another source (Britain Begins by Barry Cunliffe) I found this map of Single Graves/Bell Beaker and late Yamnaya


    So the above maps, the current discussions in the eurogenes blogs, and old discussions with RRocca and Alan about a "Goldilocks zone" that is not too R1a/Corded Ware and not too R1b-Z2103 Yamnaya, along with discussions with Razyn about taking rivers routes north towards the Baltic etc, got me to thinking.

    Maybe the L51 homeland was in or near this area circled near the Lower Dnieper River, possibly going up to the Pripyat River and into Central Europe. It's close to the Yamnaya Culture, it's inside the single grave pit culture, and allows for a river route from this area into Central Europe. (Orange area is inside the Single grave area but outside of the Corded Ware and Yamnaya areas).


    Another option for L51 that meets these criteria, might be the Orange area, north of Hungarian Yamnaya area and south of Corded Ware (where Hungary, Slovakia, Ukraine, and Poland share borders)
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 01-13-2019 at 02:51 AM.
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    One of the interesting things is that we don't yet have any ancient dna from the Single Grave Corded Ware people. Their beakers looked a heck of a lot like Bell Beaker beakers.

    Beakers_Corded Ware and Bell Beaker beakers_ Fokkens p. 17 w Maritime note and red lines.jpg
     


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    For the record as far I am aware of... these are the oldest U106+ samples - all rather Northern and Central Euro:

    c. 2275-2032 BC, Battle Axe (2800 - 2300 B.C.)/Nordic LN (2200 - 1800 B.C.), Lille Beddinge 56 - Grave 49, Lilla Bedinge, Sweden, RISE 98, U106 > Z2265+ > BY30097- (FGC36477+)

    c. 2200-1700 BC, Early Unetice, Prague-Jinonice “Zahradnictví”, Prague 5 – Jinonice, Czech Republic, I7196, U106 > Z381 > Z156 > Z304 > DF98 > S1911 > S1894

    c. 1881–1646 calBCE, Early Bronze Age, 1900-1700 B.C., De Tuithoorn, Oostwoud, Noord-Holland (West Frisia), I4070, U106 > Z381

    Next in the list are the two Roman "Gladiator/Soldiers" 3drif-16 and 6drif-3... then a bunch of Germanic migration period samples, and then some later period samples (Viking period) etc.
    Last edited by Bollox79; 01-13-2019 at 02:13 AM.
    Y-DNA: 4th GGF Adam Weaver born 1785 in Pennsylvania (most likely German) - Sergeant in US 17th Infantry, War of 1812: R1b-U106-Z381-Z156-Z305/306/307-Z304-DF98-S1911-S1894/S1900-S4004/FGC14818/FGC14823-FGC14816/FGC14817 shared with 6drif-3!

    mtDNA: 3rd GGM Bridget Dana b. 1843 Ireland - T2b2b - Ireland, Scandinavia and Hungary - T2b female warrior Grave Bj 581 near Birka, Sweden. Relative of King Bela III of Hungary (his Y-DNA and autosomal kinsman buried near him had mtDNA T2b2b1)!

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    There is no doubt that a cultural fusion c. 2550BC around Germany or Rhine would make sense archaeologically. As ive posted many times before in the last year or so, the autosomal DNA evidence very strongly points at a route around the north of the Carpathians then westwards. The beaker group in Hungary is from the Moravian gate area from a group living north of the Carpathian. I actually think a lot about non-Iberian beaker culture looks like it has influences from the western steppe fringes around the period beaker suddenly appeared in central Europe. The northern route was already full of CW people from the Rhine to Ukraine and they seem v R1a. However, I think there are always exceptions. Corded Ware is genetically v like Yamnaya. It clearly looks like an offshoot in genetic terms, yet Yamnaya has not shown any R1a yet. Classic northern/north-central bell beaker genetically looks like CW yet it has no R1a. I just think the clan-like nature of the societies tended to keep one lineage highly visible until another one got a break and then took off. It is noticeable that the change in the dominant yDNA is these genetically v similar Yamnaya-like groups correlates perfectly with the emergence of a new culture. Yamnaya-CW-beaker cultural changes correspond with Z2103-R1a-P312 changes in dominant yDNA. And although the line that dominates changes, the very fact that one line does dominate shows a sort of continuity. Dominance of one male lineages across vast distances is something Yamnaya, CW and BB have in common. The dominant y-line changes but the autosomal DNA and apparent social structure remain basically the same. The mystery of why we have not found L51 in CW is no more odd than the mystery of why we cannot find R1a in Yamnaya. It just seems to be in the nature of that type of society that one line dominates until another one finds a new niche or usurps the old one. One thing interesting though is that Yamnaya and CW only v slightly overlap whereas BB massively overlays CW areas. I certainly suspect that BB arose within the vast continuom of the CW spread. Certainly overlaying older CW areas was very widespread. It is possible that beaker was like an internal colonisation that spread from one corner of the beaker world and overlaid and displaced the older CW R1a people. Certainly looks that way. Ive posted before that I think bell beaker may have arisen at the eastern end of the CW world around the northern flanks of the Carpathians. However, I cannot totally rule out the possibility that beaker arose at the opposite end of the CW world near the Rhine or Germany and spread from there. There are archaeological arguments for both options. There is one other consideration. The Celto-Italic and Germanic branching is thought to be an early break off from the IE tree shortly after Tocharian. If that is the case then a later overlay of CW about 2550BC from the steppes doesnt make sense as its relatively late. It wouldnt fit the branching scheme v well. But if P312, future beaker lines, had already headed west (and I think it had to be by a north of Carpathians route) c. 2800BC within the CW zone then it would make a lot more sense. Even the non-IE substrate in Celtic is often shared with Germanic. But back the key point - I think shifts in yDNA from one dominant line to another (coinciding with the appearance of a new culture but not much change in autosomal DNA) is just something that happens in clan-based societies where one rise, one falls. A good parallel would be how M222 rose as other lines must have fallen. That all happened within a single linguistic/cultural group and it was basically internal colonisation with a group rather than an alien intrusion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    There's an interesting discussion going about "Yamnaya-related, R1b-P312-rich northern Bell Beakers" among other things
    https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?bl...1&isPopup=true

    Some of the comments from Davidski/Generalissmo include:










    From another source (Britain Begins by Barry Cunliffe) I found this map of Single Graves/Bell Beaker and late Yamnaya


    So the above maps, the current discussions in the eurogenes blogs, and old discussions with RRocca and Alan about a "Goldilocks zone" that is not too R1a/Corded Ware and not too R1b-Z2103 Yamnaya, along with discussions with Razyn about taking rivers routes north towards the Baltic etc, got me to thinking.

    Maybe the L51 homeland was in or near this area circled near the Lower Dnieper River, possibly going up to the Pripyat River and into Central Europe. It's close to the Yamnaya Culture, it's inside the single grave pit culture, and allows for a river route from this area into Central Europe. (Orange area is inside the Single grave area but outside of the Corded Ware and Yamnaya areas).


    Another option for L51 that meets these criteria, might be the Orange area, north of Hungarian Yamnaya area and south of Corded Ware (where Hungary, Slovakia, Ukraine, and Poland share borders)
    The last zone you mention is basically the Carpathians. Although actually travelling east to west along a mountain zone seems odd, especially when the rivers flowing from the Carpathians would often form barriers rather than arterial routes, it is possible that a weird route like that could have something to do with the metal richness of those mountains. Another thing to note is that groups like GAC, TRB etc that seem to have been involved in the Neolithic substrate in beaker did stretch all the way to the north and east flanks of the Carpathians. So, although we tend to think of GAC and TRB as northern or north-eastern cultures, they actually extended to the north slopes of the Carpathians. So such a northern seeming mixture between steppe components and GAC/TRB could have happened quite far south. However, I definitely am convinced that the genetic evidence suggests very little if any time spend by the proto-beaker P312 groups (in whatever cultural guise) to the south of the Carpathians. Genetic and archaeological evidence indicates that beaker penetrated into Danubian Hungary from the north side of the Carpatians through the Moravian gates. So the beakers in Hungary are irrelevant to the origins of beaker. Thats not to say they didnt have some importance - one has to wonder if the use of horse riding to the beaker world was not facilitated by the contact of Moravian derived beaker groups with Z2103 groups at the Csepel horse trading station. But I am as certain as I can be that the route P312 took west involved the north side of the Carpathians rather than the Lower Danube. Pretty well all the evidence is pulling in that direction. I still am not sure if that P312 movement was early (a small lineage within the CW R1a block that headed west c. 2750BC or a late wave from the north Carpathian area in the rest of the CW world. Whoever they were, they no only were dominated by one yDNA line, they somehow preserved a distinctive physical type across hundreds of miles and several centuries and indeed even at the autosomal DNA level seemed to be remarkably similar despite their incredible mobility.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    There's an interesting discussion going about "Yamnaya-related, R1b-P312-rich northern Bell Beakers" among other things
    https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?bl...1&isPopup=true

    Some of the comments from Davidski/Generalissmo include:










    From another source (Britain Begins by Barry Cunliffe) I found this map of Single Graves/Bell Beaker and late Yamnaya


    So the above maps, the current discussions in the eurogenes blogs, and old discussions with RRocca and Alan about a "Goldilocks zone" that is not too R1a/Corded Ware and not too R1b-Z2103 Yamnaya, along with discussions with Razyn about taking rivers routes north towards the Baltic etc, got me to thinking.

    Maybe the L51 homeland was in or near this area circled near the Lower Dnieper River, possibly going up to the Pripyat River and into Central Europe. It's close to the Yamnaya Culture, it's inside the single grave pit culture, and allows for a river route from this area into Central Europe. (Orange area is inside the Single grave area but outside of the Corded Ware and Yamnaya areas).


    Another option for L51 that meets these criteria, might be the Orange area, north of Hungarian Yamnaya area and south of Corded Ware (where Hungary, Slovakia, Ukraine, and Poland share borders)
    The last zone you mention is basically the Carpathians. Although actually travelling east to west along a mountain zone seems odd, especially when the rivers flowing from the Carpathians would often form barriers rather than arterial routes, it is possible that a weird route like that could have something to do with the metal richness of those mountains. Another thing to note is that groups like GAC, TRB etc that seem to have been involved in the Neolithic substrate in beaker did stretch all the way to the north and east flanks of the Carpathians. So, although we tend to think of GAC and TRB as northern or north-eastern cultures, they actually extended to the north slopes of the Carpathians. So such a northern seeming mixture between steppe components and GAC/TRB could have happened quite far south. However, I definitely am convinced that the genetic evidence suggests very little if any time spend by the proto-beaker P312 groups (in whatever cultural guise) to the south of the Carpathians. Genetic and archaeological evidence indicates that beaker penetrated into Danubian Hungary from the north side of the Carpatians through the Moravian gates. So the beakers in Hungary are irrelevant to the origins of beaker. Thats not to say they didnt have some importance - one has to wonder if the use of horse riding to the beaker world was not facilitated by the contact of Moravian derived beaker groups with Z2103 groups at the Csepel horse trading station. But I am as certain as I can be that the route P312 took west involved the north side of the Carpathians rather than the Lower Danube. Pretty well all the evidence is pulling in that direction. I still am not sure if that P312 movement was early (a small lineage within the CW R1a block that headed west c. 2750BC or a late wave from the north Carpathian area in the rest of the CW world. Whoever they were, they no only were dominated by one yDNA line, they somehow preserved a distinctive physical type across hundreds of miles and several centuries and indeed even at the autosomal DNA level seemed to be remarkably similar despite their incredible mobility.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    The last zone you mention is basically the Carpathians. Although actually travelling east to west along a mountain zone seems odd, especially when the rivers flowing from the Carpathians would often form barriers rather than arterial routes, it is possible that a weird route like that could have something to do with the metal richness of those mountains. Another thing to note is that groups like GAC, TRB etc that seem to have been involved in the Neolithic substrate in beaker did stretch all the way to the north and east flanks of the Carpathians. So, although we tend to think of GAC and TRB as northern or north-eastern cultures, they actually extended to the north slopes of the Carpathians. So such a northern seeming mixture between steppe components and GAC/TRB could have happened quite far south. However, I definitely am convinced that the genetic evidence suggests very little if any time spend by the proto-beaker P312 groups (in whatever cultural guise) to the south of the Carpathians. Genetic and archaeological evidence indicates that beaker penetrated into Danubian Hungary from the north side of the Carpatians through the Moravian gates. So the beakers in Hungary are irrelevant to the origins of beaker. Thats not to say they didnt have some importance - one has to wonder if the use of horse riding to the beaker world was not facilitated by the contact of Moravian derived beaker groups with Z2103 groups at the Csepel horse trading station. But I am as certain as I can be that the route P312 took west involved the north side of the Carpathians rather than the Lower Danube. Pretty well all the evidence is pulling in that direction. I still am not sure if that P312 movement was early (a small lineage within the CW R1a block that headed west c. 2750BC or a late wave from the north Carpathian area in the rest of the CW world. Whoever they were, they no only were dominated by one yDNA line, they somehow preserved a distinctive physical type across hundreds of miles and several centuries and indeed even at the autosomal DNA level seemed to be remarkably similar despite their incredible mobility.
    FWIW, In this area the Ludkow pass is only 640 m (2,100 ft) above sea level. According to Encyclopedia Britannica
    the Carpathians are only some 75–80 miles wide, while in the west they are 170 miles and in the east as much as 220–250 miles across.
    A much less formidable area to cross than other parts of the Carpathian Range. Wouldn't have been too difficult to enter the Hungarian Plain, and on to the Danube River Valley to the south from this area.

    To the west is the Moravian Gate that also provides less of a physical obstacle for getting to the Danube
    Its crest is located between the villages of Olšovec and Bělotín at 310 m (1,020 ft). Because of its low altitude, the Moravian Gate has since ancient times been a natural pass between the Sudetes (Oderské vrchy range) in the northwest and the Western Carpathians (Moravian-Silesian Beskids) in the southeast. Here ran the most important trade routes, such as the Amber Road from the Baltic to the Adriatic coast
    wiki

    Of course if they took a north of Carpathian route, they could have just stayed north until they got into present day Germany, and then headed up/down the Danube and Rhine.
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 01-13-2019 at 03:33 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bollox79 View Post
    For the record as far I am aware of... these are the oldest U106+ samples - all rather Northern and Central Euro:

    c. 2275-2032 BC, Battle Axe (2800 - 2300 B.C.)/Nordic LN (2200 - 1800 B.C.), Lille Beddinge 56 - Grave 49, Lilla Bedinge, Sweden, RISE 98, U106 > Z2265+ > BY30097- (FGC36477+)

    c. 2200-1700 BC, Early Unetice, Prague-Jinonice “Zahradnictví”, Prague 5 – Jinonice, Czech Republic, I7196, U106 > Z381 > Z156 > Z304 > DF98 > S1911 > S1894

    c. 1881–1646 calBCE, Early Bronze Age, 1900-1700 B.C., De Tuithoorn, Oostwoud, Noord-Holland (West Frisia), I4070, U106 > Z381

    Next in the list are the two Roman "Gladiator/Soldiers" 3drif-16 and 6drif-3... then a bunch of Germanic migration period samples, and then some later period samples (Viking period) etc.
    It makes alot of sense for P312, but I wonder how U106 fits in this ''refreshing'' Single Grave Culture>Bell Beaker theory. We know that U106 is not present in the published Bell Beaker samples.

    If this specific theory turns out to be correct, then it's possible that U106 and P312 took different paths, after they branched of the L51 subclade. Then at some point, some Single Grave clans were pred P312 who lived in The Netherlands and surrounding regions. Some other Single Grave clans were pred U106 and lived in southern Baltic Sea region, so these U106 clans simply did not participate in the formation of the Eastern Bell Beakers. Of course, there are also other scenarios for U106, but I do think that we really shoud look at the southern Baltic Sea region for clues.

    Indeed, the first known U106 is present in Sweden. On a side note, this sample appears to have a Funnelbeaker-like (especially Swedish Funnel Beaker) substrate and has an extra dose of pure WHG, according to a comment on Eurogenes (Hungarian Yamnaya> Bell Beakers article).

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    We know from historical sources that one of the routes the Cumans and Pechenegs (aka Patzinaks) of the 9th century AD took over the Carpathians and into the Hungarian Plain was the Tisza River Valley. Ivanova cites Włodarczak (2010) in saying that was probably also a route used by Yamnaya.

    From Svitlana Ivanova, Baltic-Pontic Studies vol. 18: 2013, 86-120 PL ISSN 1231-0344, Connections Between the Budzhak Culture and Central European Groups of the Corded Ware Culture, page 111:

    Quote Originally Posted by Svitlana Ivanova
    Włodarczak reconstructed the Danube way of westward migration of the Yamnaya tribes [Włodarczak 2010] . The routes of migration to Alfeld could be restored based on archaeological finds with the use of written sources and historic data from later epochs, e.g., about the migration of Medieval nomads to Pannonia. Pechenegs and Cumans mastered three ways from the southern Rus steppes to the central European Plain, to Hungary: the first, through the Iron Gates; the second, through the southern Carpathians in the headwaters of the Olt, Mures and Szomes rivers; the third, from the Upper Siret and Prut rivers to the Tisza [Rasovskiy 1993: 3].
    Danube_Rhine rivers showing Mikhailovka-Kemi Oba and Budzhak cultures.jpg
    Last edited by rms2; 01-13-2019 at 01:49 PM.
     


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    Additional Data:
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    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

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    This is from the same article by Ivanova, page 113:

    Quote Originally Posted by Svitlana Ivanova
    The authors believe that the Dniester way linked the population of the late Eneolithic – Early Bronze Age of the North-Western Pontic Region not only with the Sokal ridge or Malopolska, where the pottery complex of the Zlota culture contained vessels comparable with the pottery of the Usatovo type [Włodarczak 2008: 520] . Probably, the Budzhak population migrated westwards to central Europe across Malopolska and northern slopes of the Carpathians. The evidence of such connections could be found in the presence of Yamnaya graves in the central European area (Fig . 15), as well as in the similarity of individual shapes of pottery and ornamental motifs (Fig. 11, 12, 18-20).
    The Budzhak subgroup of Yamnaya had burial rites and an emphasis on archery a lot like Kurgan Bell Beaker. Remember, too, that while no R1a has thus far been found in Beaker, and, as I recall, only one very iffy R1b in Corded Ware, R1b-Z2103 has been found in Kurgan Bell Beaker.

    Budzhak burial with body crouched on left side, Beaker style, in a stone-lined cist, with archery equipment.

    Budzhak burial and arrowheads_Svitlana Ivanova.jpg

    Budzhak beakers.

    Beakers_Budzhak beakers.jpg

    Another thing it might be worth recalling is that R1b-L11xP312,U106 has been found in Proto-Nagyrev in Hungary. Proto-Nagyrev was the transition phase between Late Vucedol and full-on Nagyrev, so that's a lot like finding L11 in Late Vucedol. Gimbutas, if you remember, thought that Beaker was the amalgam of Yamnaya and Vucedol.

    At any rate, no one has tested Budzhak remains for ancient dna.
    Last edited by rms2; 01-13-2019 at 02:15 PM.
     


    Hidden Content


    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36981 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982 >FGC36981)

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

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