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Thread: What happened to Afanasievo

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    I know that you put in "and most reliable" as a qualifier since the Baikal M17 otherwise becomes an impediment to the theory as the ~7500 year old sample is close to the TMRCA of M17.

    I think there was a lot of back and forth and it is difficult to pinpoint the exact origin.
    I think we don't need to sort out the exact origin, b/c they would be in the same culture zone.
    Anthropologically they were intermediate: upper facial flatness, prominent convex nose of EHG, caucasoid strong, but horizontal flatness and convex nose of altai, mongoloid strong like ural people now. neolithic lake baikal people was also classified as intermediate like american indian.

    However, problem is modern people classification tool, genetics, applies to ancient people. How do we know ancient people classified themselves. For example, I think recent scythian papers did not explain scythian society:
    Was pontic scythian iron-age european or iron-age central asian like east scythian?

    Here is a case in ancient altai. Looks like afanasievo, okunevo, andronovo and karasuk would be same people regardless of their genes. They seemed to pass the most valuable thing from afanasievo to karasuk like a family treasure inherited from generation to generation. At that time, sanctuary was a extremely important thing than any other things, b/c shaman did everything over there. Who were shaman? As mentioned before, seima turbino and karasuk culture entered china at bronze.

    Overview of archaeological sources confirming the astronomical dating
    We consider it necessary to argue our position particularly on correct attribution First Sunduk and Seraphim Stone to Okunev and Andronovo cultures of Khakassia As was convincingly shown by the studies of Khakassia University archeological laboratory under the direction of A. Gotlib [19], D. A. Kirillova and M.A. Podol`skaya publications [20,21], sanctuaries of the same kind in Khakassia existed during different periods of the Bronze Age – from Afanas`ev to Karasuk culture. Okunev ceramics were discovered on four sve (Khakassia term meaning «stronghold on a mountain») examined by these authors. On Chebaki sve that is located 30 km south-west from the described objects A. I. Gottlieb discovered Okunev and Karasuk ceramics. D. A. Kirillova and M.A. Podol`skaya studied sve Kyzul hai, located on the right bank of Black Ius river between s. Ustinkino and s. Podkamen`, 25 km north-west from the objects described in the article. Okunev, Karasuk and Andronivo ceramics were discovered in the Kyzul hai sve. Structures such as system of swells, marking and isolating inner space and the «wall» made of dry masonry of sandstone slabs [22] similar to the objects described in the mentioned sources were discovered on the First Sundu territory. Based on that as well as on the object`s chronology in accordance to the observations of Arkturus on the First Sunduk we came to the conclusion that the First Sunduk is the monument of Okunev and Andronovo cultures. We are also sure that should archeological excavations be conducted Okunev, Karasuk, Andronovo and Afanas`ev ceramics are found. Seraphim Stone was attributed to the Okunev culture because of two images placed in situ on the Stone that are certainly attributed to the Okunev culture. Judging by the Arcturus and Betelgeuse observation, we can attribute Seraphim Stone to the Okunev-Andronovo culture. The presence of the two atypical images that define astronomically significant directions and cannot be attributed to any other known culture of Khakassia allow us to assume that these images may have created by Andronovo culture bearers in Khakassia After studying the sves, A. I. Gotlib, D. A. Kirillova and M.A. Podol`skaya came to the conclusion that these building were the places of seasonal residence and periodical ritual actions, not of permanent residence. At the same time, a clear stratigraphy of cultural layers in the studied objects could not be detected. The researchers proved that monumental swell structures of sandstone slabs can be unambiguously attributed to the Okunev culture.
    sorcery and shamanism:

    in ancient times people could connect with the heavens through the shaman. with this heaven and earth connection, those controlling this form of communication had the knowledge and power to rule. therefore, the shaman became an indispensable member at the royal court. in fact, often times the king was actually the leader of the shamans. the founder of china’s first three dynasties possessed shaman and supernatural abilities. for example, xiayu was able to stop and control huge flooding by using mysterious powers of his "pace of yu”, which became an important style for later shamans. another shaman was shang tang of the shang dynasty, could pray to the heavens for rain. furthermore, shaman houji could make his own crops grow and mature faster than others. such traditions have been confirmed in shang dynasty oracles. the oracle bone inscriptions noted: the shang king is the leader of the shamans. according to the inscriptions, the only holder of prophecy rights is shang king. it contained contents of the shang kings performing rain dances and dream interpretations, all of which were both shang king’s and shaman’s activities. this demonstrates that shang kings were indeed shamans. note: kc chang, qingtong huichen
    Last edited by johen; 06-01-2019 at 04:27 AM.

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  3. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    I know that you put in "and most reliable" as a qualifier since the Baikal M17 otherwise becomes an impediment to the theory as the ~7500 year old sample is close to the TMRCA of M17.

    I think there was a lot of back and forth and it is difficult to pinpoint the exact origin.

    For example we have ~6400 ybp mt-C, C4a2 from Ukraine.
    "The main feature of M-t cemeteries is inhumation burial in the supine position. This burial rite differs from most local Mesolithic burial traditions and is characteristic of the ‘Euro-Siberian’ zone of extended burials, which are found from Lake Baikal and the forest and forest-steppe zones of the East European Plain to the northern part of Central Europe and Scandinavia"
    There's no guarantee that the Siberian M17 is real, because it's a PCR sequence. There's no way to validate it unless it's sequenced with the capture or shotgun methods.

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