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Thread: What happened to Afanasievo

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    Subsequent review of the radiocarbon dates have discounted those early dates and indicate it’s not older than Yannaya.
    I did say they are contemporary - "Yamna and Afanasevo are contemporary so one does not descend from the other."

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  3. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    I did say they are contemporary - "Yamna and Afanasevo are contemporary so one does not descend from the other."
    Whether each one is first is not important, I think.

    My thinking is whether yamna culture belongs to the EHG group culture zone in the map, which existed from late mesolithic to EBA. because of (post 31)
    From my point of my view, yamna seems to be just sanfransico, and afanasievo NY in the Zone.

    They herded cattle, piercing bloody butcher zone of wild horse killers Botai people. Finally their journey ends in the Altai, so called “Hell”, homeland of ancestors of scythian, who used human skulls as drinking cups archaeologically as american indian.
    I remembered that scythian said to perisian emperor that they just did what their ancetors did.

    How about the other altai people, SM and karasuk? Their culture entered china, where bloody sacrifices happened. I think they would not be humans. Was their ancestors different from them? I really, really, really think not.

    Abstract:
    Records on human sacrifice have been revealed by the oracle-bone inscriptions of Shang Dynasty. Human sacrifices carry special symbolic significance in Shang Dynasty for worshipping spirits. Different methods of killing were used in worship rituals. As the inscription reveals, some words are used as the methods of killing of human beings in general. In the meantime, some special characters are used to refer to specific killing methods through analysis of the characters and structures of the language. The lecture will focus on 12 different methods of killing human sacrifice. The methods include beheading, splitting the body into halves, dismembering bodies, beating to death, chopping to death, extracting blood, burying alive, drowning, burning to death, boiling, corpse displaying, exposing body part to hot sun. With the analysis of the different methods of human sacrifice, it is easy to conclude that human sacrifice was a very common religious practice in Shang dynasty. These practices reflect the cruelty of the rulers to their subjects and their piety towards the spirits they worship.
    However, many scholars simply said that the afanasievo people went to altai for mining and animal husbandry. Why not choose east ural like sintashta people, or caucasus mt like catacomb people?

    Looks like the afansievo people already knew the alati before reaching there. Before afanasievo people, I think balkan famer gene arrived at neolithic yangshao culture in china thru EHG group people, unless farmers throw their pottery toward china from balkan: see the western style flexed burial and Tripoli culture type pottery, which I already quoted source here and there in Eupedia.


    Banpo burial site
    Last edited by johen; 05-27-2019 at 08:02 PM.

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  5. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    However, many scholars simply said that the afanasievo people went to altai for mining and animal husbandry. Why not choose east ural like sintashta people, or caucasus mt like catacomb people?

    Looks like the afansievo people already knew the alati before reaching there. Before afanasievo people, I think balkan famer gene arrived at neolithic yangshao culture in china thru EHG group people, unless farmers throw their pottery toward china from balkan: see the western style flexed burial and Tripoli culture type pottery, which I already quoted source here and there in Eupedia.
    I was under the impression that Narasimhan found R1b in Sintashta. The only question; if they were working the copper[metallurgy before the arrival of R1a, and if their copper tanged daggers and axes are related to Yamanay--Catacombe. While on the other hand it would be interesting to see R1a copper metallurgy samples from Sredny Stog and Corded Ware and related R1a cultures.


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  7. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    Whether each one is first is not important, I think.

    My thinking is whether yamna culture belongs to the EHG group culture zone in the map, which existed from late mesolithic to EBA. because of (post 31)
    From my point of my view, yamna seems to be just sanfransico, and afanasievo NY in the Zone.
    Quit trolling.

    Afanasievo is an offshoot of Yamnaya.

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9o...ew?usp=sharing

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  9. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    Quit trolling.

    Afanasievo is an offshoot of Yamnaya.

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9o...ew?usp=sharing
    Honestly, I want the other member's opinion except you.

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  11. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    I was under the impression that Narasimhan found R1b in Sintashta. The only question; if they were working the copper[metallurgy before the arrival of R1a, and if their copper tanged daggers and axes are related to Yamanay--Catacombe. While on the other hand it would be interesting to see R1a copper metallurgy samples from Sredny Stog and Corded Ware and related R1a cultures.
    "The origin of Sintashta metallurgy.
    Before the Sintashta culture the metallurgy was absent in the Transural. The metallurgists of the
    Pit-grave culture did not know the way of bronze production. Alloys copper with arsenic were typical to
    the Circumpontic area of the Middle Bronze Age [7, fig. 5]. But ore-smelting was not known in the
    Northern Caucasus and Eastern Europe. Metallurgists in Balkans used mainly “pure” copper. Copper
    alloyed with arsenic or tin was not so typical. The metal structures of the Caucasus and Anatolia are more close to metal structure of the Sintashta culture (fig. 2)."

    The Sintashta fortified settlements (Arkaim and Sintashta) have round walls and moats [8; 9]. The houses
    are blocked together. Direct analogies with them are known only in Anatolia (Demirchiuyuk, Pulur, Mercin),
    Syro-Palestine (Rogem Hiri) and the Transcaucasus (Uzerlic-Tepe) [10 – 13]. Sintashta burial traditions are
    identical to ones in this region too. Other artefacts (metal, ceramics etc.) have parallels there [14].
    A technology of metal production is very specific. Metallurgists alloyed copper with arsenic on an oresmelting stage. In Eastern Europe such way of bronze production was not known. However, it was known in the
    Transcaucasus and, perhaps, in Near East. A correlation of weapons, tools, ornaments and other artefacts is
    similar to those in the Transcaucasus and Asia Minor.
    A weaving technology had been borrowed from any south centre [15].
    http://csc.ac.ru/news/1999_1/99-1-11-1.pdf

    And think more with this information also:
    The 14 ancient genomes reported here have strong implications for the horse domestication process. First, it has recently been discovered that a now-extinct lineage of wild horses existed in the Arctic until at least ~5.2 ka and significantly contributed to the genetic makeup of present-day domesticates (14,15). The timing of the underlying admixture event(s) is, however, unknown. Using D statistics, we confirmed that this extinct lineage shared more derived polymorphisms with the Sintashta and especially Scythian horses than with present-day domesticates (Fig. 2. The domestic horse lineage, thus, experienced a net loss of archaic introgressed tracts within the past ~2.3 ky.
    Last edited by johen; 05-27-2019 at 10:15 PM.

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  13. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    Honestly, I want the other member's opinion except you.
    The graphic he posted from Allencroft et al (2015) published in Nature sums up the genetic evidence, which is definitive in this case. If you want to refute said evidence you're really going to need some evidence. The thread was about Afanasievo but you don't seem to have any easy to pin down thesis on the subject and now you're talking about Sintashta who were related but not directly descended from Yamnaya/Afanasievo and wouldn't have absorbed Afanasievo elements (assuming any were left) until their descendants moved east as the Andronovo culture.

    When you are shown DNA evidence you have to work within the confirmed reality of the situation and your theories have to be congruent with the evidence at hand. What you have posted is a weird web of quotes and citations that don't even elucidate the main points of your conjecture because it's all over the place.

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  15. #48
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    Nobody answers my question of whether yamna culture belongs to following EHG (or ANE) group. If not. the yamna identity should be found from ancient caucasus R1b. I don't care about whether yamna went to altai or the opposite, b/c it is meaningless from my point of view.

    Lastly, I want to ask one more thing: Actually it was and is a shock to me that EHG people survived such a long time even in EMBA. Did they just stay in west siberia, not like EHG R1a or steppe maykop Q?

    As far as I know, EHG R1a went to Europe with mt DNA C and lake baikal pottery, introducing supine burial in Europe.
    Steppe maykop Q introduced elite culture of being burying wagon in pit to Pontic steppe, and american indian gene.

    That's it? no more migration to east europe at all? I think EHG group botai has M73, hence, there should be EHG m269 in west siberia, especially in the east of ural tomb with horse and cattle bones.

    Last edited by johen; 05-29-2019 at 08:05 PM.

  16. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    Nobody answers my question of whether yamna culture belongs to following EHG (or ANE) group. If not. the yamna identity should be found from ancient caucasus R1b. I don't care about whether yamna went to altai or the opposite, b/c it is meaningless from my point of view.

    Lastly, I want to ask one more thing: Actually it was and is a shock to me that EHG people survived such a long time even in EMBA. Did they just stay in west siberia, not like EHG R1a or steppe maykop Q?
    Yamnaya is a culture and population that developed from preceding groups living on the Pontic-Caspian steppe in Eastern Europe, such as Repin and Sredny Stog. It's definitely not from Siberia and neither is Afanasievo.

    There's also no evidence that R1a is from Siberia, because easily the oldest and most reliable R1a samples are from Ukraine and Karelia (near the Finnish border).

    You can't argue with this, because the ancient DNA data leave no room for any arguments. These are the facts and you have to accept them.

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  18. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    Yamnaya is a culture and population that developed from preceding groups living on the Pontic-Caspian steppe in Eastern Europe, such as Repin and Sredny Stog. It's definitely not from Siberia and neither is Afanasievo.

    There's also no evidence that R1a is from Siberia, because easily the oldest and most reliable R1a samples are from Ukraine and Karelia (near the Finnish border).

    You can't argue with this, because the ancient DNA data leave no room for any arguments. These are the facts and you have to accept them.
    I know that you put in "and most reliable" as a qualifier since the Baikal M17 otherwise becomes an impediment to the theory as the ~7500 year old sample is close to the TMRCA of M17.

    I think there was a lot of back and forth and it is difficult to pinpoint the exact origin.

    For example we have ~6400 ybp mt-C, C4a2 from Ukraine.
    "The main feature of M-t cemeteries is inhumation burial in the supine position. This burial rite differs from most local Mesolithic burial traditions and is characteristic of the ‘Euro-Siberian’ zone of extended burials, which are found from Lake Baikal and the forest and forest-steppe zones of the East European Plain to the northern part of Central Europe and Scandinavia"

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