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Thread: Earliest ancient DNA for R1b subclades?

  1. #1
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    Earliest ancient DNA for R1b subclades?

    I'm trying to create a list to include on the R1b project web pages on the earliest ancient DNA for the main subgroups.

    Here is what I have so far. I'm just rounding off the midpoint dates.

    M207 22000 BC SE Russia
    M173 ?
    V88 12000 BC NE Italy (Epigravettian)
    P297 6300 BC Latvia (Narva)
    M73 3300 BC Kazakhstan (Botai)
    M269
    L23 S Russia (Yamnaya)
    Z2103 S Russia (Yamnaya)
    P312 2400 BC NE France (E Beaker)
    P312 2400 BC N Holland(Dutch Beaker)
    U152 2400 BC SE Germany (E Beaker)
    L21 2400 BC SW England(NW Beaker)
    DF27 2300 BC C Germany (E Beaker)
    U106 2150 BC S Sweden(CW Battle-Axe)

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  3. #2
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    U152>L2>Z41150>Z49>

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    I'm trying to create a list to include on the R1b project web pages on the earliest ancient DNA for the main subgroups.

    Here is what I have so far. I'm just rounding off the midpoint dates.

    M207 22000 BC SE Russia
    M173 ?
    V88 12000 BC NE Italy (Epigravettian)
    P297 6300 BC Latvia (Narva)
    M73 3300 BC Kazakhstan (Botai)
    M269
    L23 S Russia (Yamnaya)
    Z2103 S Russia (Yamnaya)
    P312 2400 BC NE France (E Beaker)
    P312 2400 BC N Holland(Dutch Beaker)
    U152 2400 BC SE Germany (E Beaker)
    L21 2400 BC SW England(NW Beaker)
    DF27 2300 BC C Germany (E Beaker)
    U106 2150 BC S Sweden(CW Battle-Axe)
    Oldest U152 is RISE563 at 2572-2512 BC, midpoint 2542 BC
    DF27 sample I0806 from Quedlinburg radiocarbon dated to 2431–2150 calBCE .
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 01-17-2019 at 07:56 PM.
    Y-DNA R-Z49>Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
    Ancestry: 37% English, 26% Scot/Ulster Scot, 14% Welsh, 14% German 3% Ireland, 3% Nordic, 2% French & Dutch, 1% India

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    DF19 ~300 AD Roman York

    Somebody, please uncover more...
    R1b>M269>L23>L51>L11>P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833 >S4281>S4268>Z17112 (S17075-)

    Y-cousin: 6DRIF-23 (DF19>>Z17112+, S17075+)

    Ancestors: Francis Cooke (M223/I2a2a) b1583; Hester Mahieu (Cooke) (J1c2 mtDNA) b.1584; Richard Warren (E-M35) b1578; Elizabeth Walker (Warren) (H1j mtDNA) b1583;
    John Mead (I2a1/P37.2) b1634; Rev. Joseph Hull (I1, L1301+ L1302-) b1595; Benjamin Harrington (M223/I2a2a-Y5729) b1618; Joshua Griffith (L21>DF13) b1593;
    John Wing (U106) b1584; Hermann Wilhelm (DF19) b1635

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    Hey, you're lucky. Try being M458 in R1a; origin per YFull 2700 BC, earliest sample from the 1200s...AD!

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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    Oldest U152 is RISE563 at 2572-2512 BC, midpoint 2542 BC
    DF27 sample I0806 from Quedlinburg radiocarbon dated to 2431–2150 calBCE .
    Thank you, is RISE563 also in eastern Lower Bavaria?

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    U5b2a2

    Lopatino 1,IO429, 3339-2917 calBCE--2108+
    Yamnaya, Lopatino II, I0443, 3300-2700 BC---L23+
    PG2001,4336-4047 calBCE--R-V1636:
    Last edited by Silesian; 01-17-2019 at 10:09 PM. Reason: added R-V1636

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  12. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    Here is what I have so far.
    I don't think it is correct to show Mal'ta (in the Irkutsk district west of Baikal) as SE Russia, while at the same time showing Samara and Kalmykia as South Russia.
    Also, the earliest U106 sample found in Lilla Bedinge (Sweden) postdates CW/Battle Axe in Scandinavia, so even though it was found in a former Battle Axe cemetery, the burial rite was very different and this sample was marked as "Battle Axe/Nordic LN" rather than "Battle Axe".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    Thank you, is RISE563 also in eastern Lower Bavaria?
    Yes Osterhofen-Altenmarkt, Bavaria. Near the Danube, close to the Austrian border
    Y-DNA R-Z49>Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
    Ancestry: 37% English, 26% Scot/Ulster Scot, 14% Welsh, 14% German 3% Ireland, 3% Nordic, 2% French & Dutch, 1% India

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    I don't think it is correct to show Mal'ta (in the Irkutsk district west of Baikal) as SE Russia, while at the same time showing Samara and Kalmykia as South Russia.
    Would you call Samara "South Russia" and Lake Baikal just "Siberia"? or should Samara be "Southwest Russia"?
    A lot of folks (in my audience) don't attach much meaning to the oblast naming.

    Also, the earliest U106 sample found in Lilla Bedinge (Sweden) postdates CW/Battle Axe in Scandinavia, so even though it was found in a former Battle Axe cemetery, the burial rite was very different and this sample was marked as "Battle Axe/Nordic LN" rather than "Battle Axe".
    Would it be better termed as just "Nordic Bronze Age"?
    Last edited by Mikewww; 01-18-2019 at 02:52 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post

    Would it be better termed as just "Nordic Bronze Age"?
    The most accurate term for the earliest U106 is Nordic Late Neolithic I (around 2350-1950 BC), because it's age falls within the Nordic LN I perfectly (age of the sample 2275-2032 BC, average date is around 2150 BC).

    While the Nordic LN II period (1950-1750 BC) has strong overlap with the Nordic Bronze Age, as some Scandinavian archaeologists even group Nordic LN II and the Nordic Bronze Age together, they still seperate Nordic LN I from the Nordic Bronze Age, because this period was relatively stable and it was still related to the preceeding cultures.

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