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Thread: Earliest ancient DNA for R1b subclades?

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    Would you call Samara "South Russia" and Lake Baikal just "Siberia"? or should Samara be "Southwest Russia"?
    South Russia (for Samara and Kalmykia) seems ok, as most people will assume that this relates to the southern part of European Russia (rather then to the southern part of Western Siberia).
    As for Siberia, this is a huge territory (ranging from Ural to Pacific), so such a very general description does not seem to be specific enough. Therefore, I would suggest "Siberia, Baikal region" (or, optionally, "Baikal region" alone).


    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    Would it be better termed as just "Nordic Bronze Age"?
    I agree with Radbout in this respect. Alternatively, you may call it "Battle Axe/Nordic Late Neolithic", just like the authors of that paper did.
    Last edited by Michał; 01-18-2019 at 11:16 AM.

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  3. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post



    I agree with Radbout in this respect. Alternatively, you may call it "Battle Axe/Nordic Late Neolithic", just like the authors of that paper did.
    Yeah, Battle/Nordic Late Neolithic is also acceptable. There is not much to associate this sample with specific cultures, because his burial and grave are atypical for both CWC and BB, although I remember that you saw some similarities between a subgroup of GAC and this sample, based on the position of the skeleton etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    I'm trying to create a list to include on the R1b project web pages on the earliest ancient DNA for the main subgroups.

    Here is what I have so far. I'm just rounding off the midpoint dates.

    M207 22000 BC SE Russia
    M173 ?
    V88 12000 BC NE Italy (Epigravettian)
    P297 6300 BC Latvia (Narva)
    M73 3300 BC Kazakhstan (Botai)
    M269
    L23 S Russia (Yamnaya)
    Z2103 S Russia (Yamnaya)
    P312 2400 BC NE France (E Beaker)
    P312 2400 BC N Holland(Dutch Beaker)
    U152 2400 BC SE Germany (E Beaker)
    L21 2400 BC SW England(NW Beaker)
    DF27 2300 BC C Germany (E Beaker)
    U106 2150 BC S Sweden(CW Battle-Axe)
    ... I didn't know that Villabruna sample was V88...

  6. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Romilius View Post
    ... I didn't know that Villabruna sample was V88...
    He wasn't. L754* (xP297,V88)

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  8. #15
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    Thanks, so Villabruna is our earliest L754 xP297,V88. Where is our earliest V88? Where/when is our earliest M269 xL23?

  9. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    Thanks, so Villabruna is our earliest L754 xP297,V88. Where is our earliest V88? Where/when is our earliest M269 xL23?
    IIRC, for V88 it was northern levant circa 9000BC before it headed to egypt and beyond
    there is a paper by angela smith about it


    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+ )

  10. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    Thanks, so Villabruna is our earliest L754 xP297,V88. Where is our earliest V88? Where/when is our earliest M269 xL23?
    Here is a list of all confirmed V88 samples. Some are confirmed V88+ in the paper (Gonzalez-Fortes & Hofmanova), others by Genetiker and/or S. Malishev. There is also a bunch of L754 (xP297) samples, which are almost certainly V88+ as well.

    v88-2.PNG
    Last edited by Pribislav; 01-18-2019 at 08:52 PM.

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  12. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    Thanks, so Villabruna is our earliest L754 xP297,V88.
    This is not true. Villabruna is L754, but we can't exclude V88 or P297. We can exclude only some SNPs from V88 or P297 levels. And what is more important we can't exclude the oldest SNPs from the V88 branch, FGC21066/Y7789, PF6339, and PF6307, which were positive for I4916, Hajduka Vodenica; I5411, Schela Cladovei; SC1-Meso, Schela Cladovei.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    P297 6300 BC Latvia (Narva)
    Of course, the following samples from Latvia, I4432, I4434, I4439, Latvia_HG2/I4626, Latvia_HG3/I4628, I4630, I4436, I4627, are R1b-P297. However, they are all also belong to the R1b-P297>M73 branch.

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  16. #20
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    Thank you, Smal. Are there are any L23 xZ2103 older than the Z2103 at Samara?

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