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Thread: Origins of Germans in Mecklenburg and Brandenburg

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    Origins of Germans in Mecklenburg and Brandenburg

    Distribution of ethnic groups around the year 850 AD:



    Eastward migration of German peasants after 1100 AD:



    Political expansion of Brandenburg (Askanian Dynasty):



    =====

    The main literary source about those events is Saxom historian, Helmold: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helmold

    Helmold, "Slavic Chronicle", Chapter 57 - "Foundation of the city of Lübeck" - about colonization of Wagria:



    "(...) Count Adolf started building the castle of Segeberg and fortified it. Because the land was ravaged, he sent messengers to many regions, namely to Flanders, Holland, Utrecht, Westphalia and Frisia, with a message that if they needed more land they were free to come with their families, and they would be given a lot of good fertile land, full of fish and game, rich in vast pastures. He also told Holsatians and Sturmarians: 'Aren't you the ones who conquered Slavic land and obtained it through deaths of your brothers and relatives? So why should you settle as the last ones? Be first, start migrating to this desired land, settle it and benefit from its resources' (...). After that call, huge crowds of people from various nations started coming, together with their families and property, to the land of the Wagrians ruled by Adolf, who promised to give them land.

    Holsatians were given safe areas to the west of Segeberg, near the Trave river, including the Zuentineveld [modern Bornhöved] fields as well as everything between the river Schwale up to Agrimesov [modern Grimmeisberg] and up to Lake Plön.

    The region of Dargun [modern Warder and Ahrensbök/Stoob] was settled by Westphalians.

    The region of Utyn [Eutin] was settled by Hollanders.

    The region of Süsel [south-east of Eutin] was settled by Frisians.

    The region of Plön still remained depopulated for the time being.

    Regions of Starogard [Oldenburg] and Lutjenburg as well as other areas along the sea coast were left for farming to the Slavs, who now had to pay rent to Count Adolf (...)".


    =====

    Helmold, "Slavic Chronicle", Chapter 91 - about colonization of Mecklenburg:



    "Heinrich, Count of Ratzeburg in the land of Polabian Slavs, brought masses of Westphalian settlers, in order for them to settle in the land of the Slavs. And he divided the land between them. And they built churches, and they started paying taxes from their farming income for the Glory of God. And God's deed started to spread throughout the land of the Slavs under Heinrich's reign, and was completed during the reign of his son, Bernard. On the other hand, Holsatians who settled in Wagria after expulsion of local Slavs, were very zealous when it comes to building new churches, and were very hospitable, but they avoided paying taxes. (...)"

    =====

    Helmold, "Slavic Chronicle", Chapter 88 titled "About Albrecht the Bear":



    "At that time Slavic lands were ruled by Margrave Albrecht, also known as the Bear, who - thanks to God's grace - managed to conquer large Slavic territories. He captured entire land of Stodoranians, Brezans and many other tribes living at the Elbe and Havel rivers. And he was crushing those of them who were trying to rebel against his rule. When decimated Slavs started to slowly disappear, Albrecht sent messangers to Utrecht and to lands along the Rhine river and also to those who lived along the ocean's coast and suffered a lot from violent storms of the sea - namely Hollanders, Zealanders and Flemish people - and he brought many settlers from among them, and he settled them within Slavic towns and villages. Thanks to that colonization by foreigners, the Bishopric of Brandenburg and Havelberg increased its strength, because the number of churches and tax income increased. But also southern banks of the Elbe river were at that time colonized by Dutch newcomers, they settled lands around Salzwedel, and Balsemerland [around Stendal and Halberstadt], and Marscinerland [between Arneburg and Werben], with many towns and villages, extending as far as the Bohemian Forest. (...)"

    =====

    Polish edition of Helmold's chronicle (in PDF):

    http://bc.wimbp.lodz.pl/Content/1233..._kronika_a.pdf
    Last edited by Tomenable; 01-26-2019 at 01:49 PM.

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    So when Germans in Central & Eastern Germany score e.g. "Dutch" or "Belgian" DNA, it is not a mistake - they really came from there.

    If they score e.g. "Dutch + Ukrainian", it means they are partly descended from local Wends or Sorbs, and partly from Dutch settlers.
    Last edited by Tomenable; 01-26-2019 at 01:59 PM.

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    According to Helmold's "Slavic Chronicle" ("Chronica Slavorum") after the conquest of Wagria by crusaders, Slavic inhabitants (the tribe of Wagrians) were relocated to a reserve around Oldenburg and Lütjenburg, where a church with sermons in Slavic was established for them. Another church with sermons in German was built in Ratekau.

    Wagrians (Slavic tribe):

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagri

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lütjenburg

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratekau

    Lütjenburg (Małogród/Lutynia) and Oldenburg (Starogard) areas remained Slavic-inhabited:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oldenburg_in_Holstein

    Map: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...te_Wagrien.jpg



    Map from the Atlas of Slavic Toponyms in Germany:

    https://i.imgur.com/idFh2az.jpg



    Maps showing ethnic groups of Wagria during the Early Middle Ages:

    https://www.academia.edu/25218901/Wa...stern_Holstein







    =====

    In Mecklenburg, apart from Dutch there is also Danish admixture:

    This video shows with different colors areas which were under Danish rule for:

    >1000, 900, 800, 600, 500, 400, 200, 100, 50 and 10+ years

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwsBLDiqECE

    Last edited by Tomenable; 01-27-2019 at 06:44 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    So when Germans in Central & Eastern Germany score e.g. "Dutch" or "Belgian" DNA, it is not a mistake - they really came from there.

    If they score e.g. "Dutch + Ukrainian", it means they are partly descended from local Wends or Sorbs, and partly from Dutch settlers.
    Where they up to now endogamous Tomenable?

    This is an area with lots of booby traps, with ideological convictions, especially with older sources....(before '45).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Where they up to now endogamous Tomenable?
    Well, I am of the opinion that modern East Germans there, were "created" when Dutch-like (genetically) people mixed with Sorbian-like Slavic inhabitants. What about South Germans? Are you aware that almost all of Early Medieval samples from Bavaria and Swabia - except for the ones with deformed skulls and "Mediterranean" (Non-Celto-Germanic) genetics - cluster with modern Danes and Dutch (especially Dutch Frisians), not with modern Germans (let alone with modern South Germans!).

    Why is this the case in your opinion? https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map.../48.273/11.666

    In my opinion it could be caused either by population replacement (after Charlemagne's conquest, new settlers from Francia) or mixing with "Celts".

    But these "genetic Celts" should be there before, so why didn't we find them among the genotyped Early Medieval samples from Bavaria, Swabia? Surely women with deformed skulls were not Celts, and were not even locals (as strontium isotopes show), but were likely imported Dacian/Thracian/Illyrian/Greek/Italian wifes.

    Individuals from Early Medieval South Germany who do not cluster with modern Danes & Dutch, usually plot close to Romanians, Serbs, Italians, Greeks.

    =====

    It seems that conquest of Pagan Germanic tribes (such as Saxons) by Charlemagne's Empire, was associated with large west>east population movements. We actually have written sources which say about massacres of Saxons and forced deportation of several thousand Saxon families from Nordalbingia to Gaul (Francia).

    Example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_Verden

    Also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saxon_Wars#Final_phase

    ^^^ After those dramatic events, who knows, maybe even more of Saxon DNA survives in modern England, than in original Saxony?

    I wouldn't also be surprised if a lot of Gallo-Romans, Latin-speakers, came to Bavaria etc. after Charlemagne, but later language shift to German took place.
    Last edited by Tomenable; 01-27-2019 at 09:29 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Where they up to now endogamous Tomenable?
    My analysis just reflects the observations of many people for many years (questions like "Why German DNA does not show on DNA tests?").

    We had a thread about "23andMe German Problem", check: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post104451

    Of course you can artificially force the algorithm to show German results by applying penalization... but that is "cheating", kind of.

    And I explained why many Germans may score Dutch + Slavic instead of German: because they really are Dutch/Danish + Slavic or Dutch/Danish + Celtic. Simple as that.

    Even those Early Medieval German genomes from Bavaria and Swabia (Alemanni) were genetically Danish or Dutch (especially Dutch Frisian).

    If you think there is "magical continuity" between Bronze Age Tollense and modern East Germans, you are most likely wrong - too many sweeping migrations in-between.

    I remember when they discovered that Corded Ware from Eulau were R1a, people were claiming "so modern R1a in Germans is Corded Ware, not Slavic". Turned out to be wrong because subclades are completely different and that R1a from Eulau is pretty much extinct today (except for small pockets in Western Europe).

    BTW, Eulau cemetery contains burials of victims of cannibalism - those R1a people were the victims. Explains why this subclade got extinct!

    =====

    Sure, Western Lower Saxony is pretty close genetically to Denmark and the Netherlands. Original Saxons were similar to Frisians, Danes and Dutch.
    Last edited by Tomenable; 01-27-2019 at 09:31 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Well, I am of the opinion that modern East Germans there, were "created" when Dutch-like (genetically) people mixed with Sorbian-like Slavic inhabitants. What about South Germans? Are you aware that almost all of Early Medieval samples from Bavaria and Swabia - except for the ones with deformed skulls and "Mediterranean" (Non-Celto-Germanic) genetics - cluster with modern Danes and Dutch (especially Dutch Frisians), not with modern Germans (let alone with modern South Germans!).

    Why is this the case in your opinion? https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map.../48.273/11.666

    In my opinion it could be caused either by population replacement (after Charlemagne's conquest, new settlers from Francia) or mixing with "Celts".

    But these "genetic Celts" should be there before, so why didn't we find them among the genotyped Early Medieval samples from Bavaria, Swabia? Surely women with deformed skulls were not Celts, and were not even locals (as strontium isotopes show), but were likely imported Dacian/Thracian/Illyrian/Greek/Italian wifes.

    Individuals from Early Medieval South Germany who do not cluster with modern Danes & Dutch, usually plot close to Romanians, Serbs, Italians, Greeks.
    May be the case. A more recent event is the depopulation in the Thirty Years War, after which often Swiss migrated to SW Germany.

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    A few years ago I first suggested that East Germanic and Elbe Germanic tribes had more of I1-M253 than R1b-U106, after reading this:

    (see Table 3. on page 6 out of 7):

    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...wanderungszeit

    12 samples from Görzig in Saxony-Anhalt dated to the 300s-400s AD, of whom as many as 7 or 8 were I1-M253:

    I1-M253 ---------------------------------------------- 7 (~58%)
    I (likely I2 but can be some Russian clade of I1) ----- 1 (~8%)
    R1b ------------------------------------------------------- 1 (~8%)
    R1 (most likely R1a, or some eastern R1b) ----------- 1 (~8%)
    R1 (likely R1b but can be R1a-Z284 or L664) -------- 2 (~17%)

    Location of Görzig:



    So in 300s-400s AD, Saxony-Anhalt probably had Y-DNA frequencies more similar to modern Sweden than to modern Western Germany.

    Also if you look at Y-DNA of Slavic populations living in areas where East Germanic tribes used to live, they have more I1 than R1b-U106:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashubians#Genetics

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorbs#Genetics

    First published news about Y-DNA of Wielbark culture (associated with Goths and Gepids) also suggest domination of I1-M253:

    https://www.academia.edu/33791135/20..._DNA_libraries



    And autosomally similar to Jutland Iron Age (so ancestors of Jutes and Angles as well as partially ancestors of modern Danes):

    http://www.actabp.pl/#Archiwum?./supl/2_2018.html



    Explains why I score Belarus (= Proto-Slavs and some West Balts?) + Denmark (= Goths and maybe Vandals?) in DNA Tribes:



    =====

    I suggested that R1b-U106 expanded from more western areas into what is now Central and East Germany after 800 AD.

    My prediction about Elbe-Oder area Y-DNA over time:

    300s-400s AD = I1-M253 dominant
    600s-1000s AD = R1a-M458 dominant
    1100s-present = R1b-U106 dominant


    Modern frequencies: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....A-Distribution

    Central (today Eastern, between Elbe and Oder) Germany:

    Last edited by Tomenable; 01-27-2019 at 10:07 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Well, I am of the opinion that modern East Germans there, were "created" when Dutch-like (genetically) people mixed with Sorbian-like Slavic inhabitants. What about South Germans? Are you aware that almost all of Early Medieval samples from Bavaria and Swabia - except for the ones with deformed skulls and "Mediterranean" (Non-Celto-Germanic) genetics - cluster with modern Danes and Dutch (especially Dutch Frisians), not with modern Germans (let alone with modern South Germans!).

    Why is this the case in your opinion? https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map.../48.273/11.666

    In my opinion it could be caused either by population replacement (after Charlemagne's conquest, new settlers from Francia) or mixing with "Celts".

    But these "genetic Celts" should be there before, so why didn't we find them among the genotyped Early Medieval samples from Bavaria, Swabia? Surely women with deformed skulls were not Celts, and were not even locals (as strontium isotopes show), but were likely imported Dacian/Thracian/Illyrian/Greek/Italian wifes.

    Individuals from Early Medieval South Germany who do not cluster with modern Danes & Dutch, usually plot close to Romanians, Serbs, Italians, Greeks.

    =====

    It seems that conquest of Pagan Germanic tribes (such as Saxons) by Charlemagne's Empire, was associated with large west>east population movements. We actually have written sources which say about massacres of Saxons and forced deportation of several thousand Saxon families from Nordalbingia to Gaul (Francia).

    I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of Gallo-Romans, Latin-speakers, came to Bavaria, Swabia after Charlemagne, but later language shift to German took place.
    well the (ema)bavaria paper did mention two sets of people but with the keyword that the adc women, with their dark eyes and hair and closest to modern south/south-east europeans, were the brides of the non-adc males _with light hair and light eyes clustering with modern dutch and scandinavians(aka conventional germanic); now i would imagine inlight of them actually being the brides(not stray finds) that such a mash up is key to modern south-german ethnogenesis; as to from where these women/brides actually came from i remember the supp.pdf had several maps of contemporary areas practicing cranial deformation, i do not remember the sr-isotopes but i would imagine that exogamy from a former area of the hun realm(yet not hun themselves) is the correct direction; National Geographic describes a good article on the whole situation https://news.nationalgeographic.com/...tiquity-skull/

    as for dutch settlers also the areas in lower saxony such as the orchard rich alte land near hamburg was settled by dutch farmers infact 'alte land' derived etymolgy from holland also usedom met such a fate as described in that paper that yielded the sofar oldest occurrance of R1a/M458 that after bad harvests alot of westphalian(saxon) and dutch farmers came to the island; but concerning helmold and co and his takes/tales i say nothing is ever as hot as it gets cooked, so i would assume that the wendish substructure is still notable today(with thirty-years war a bigger impact) rather than a total replacement of ema saxon and dutch farmers;

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    I remember when they discovered that Corded Ware from Eulau were R1a, people were claiming "so modern R1a in Germans is Corded Ware, not Slavic". Turned out to be wrong because subclades are completely different and that R1a from Eulau is pretty much extinct today (except for small pockets in Western Europe).

    BTW, Eulau cemetery contains burials of victims of cannibalism - those R1a people were the victims. Explains why this subclade got extinct!
    well in conjunction to the above south german story, south germany was very much(or atleast part of the story) settled by people captured/subjugated in war; particularly saxons and wends(my guess ottonian period-sorb campaigns) whose toponyms are still found each all over south germany today; now i do imagine that the R1a found among the bavari but never specified would turn out to be L488 as L488 was also longobard SZ15, and it would be cool if some "basal" dead-end M417/Z282 would indeed stem from a CWC continuity, but M458 and Z280(though also found in halberstadt bronze age) is definately wizout a doubt from the wends; and here i disagree with your previously posted list of 'subclades of germany' ?FTDNA data? which showed M458 to be very minor in south germany, keep in mind that the pre-war data of bavaria(upper swabia) was 7,7% of the total n218 also in 2014 underhill et al from the 41 R1a germans 15(/41) were M458+ of which 6 coming from the south german group alone and 9 from the rest of germany; a remeniscance of the wendish settling during early middle ages;
    Last edited by alexfritz; 01-27-2019 at 10:06 AM.
    Geno2.0NG 51%SEurope 19%WCEurope 13%Scandinavia 5%AsiaMinor 4%EEurope 4%GB&Ireland 3%Arabia myOrigins 52%WCEurope 40%SEEurope 5%BritishIsles 3%WMiddleEast DNA.Land 49%NWEuropean 27%SEuropean 13%MedIslander 11%Sardinian myHeritage 51.8%NWEuropean 33.2%Italian 7.9%Greek 7.1%Balkan gencove 29%NItaly 19%EMed 15%NBritishIsles 12%SWEurope 10%NCEurope 9%Scandinavia 6%NEEurope GenePlazaK29 54.4%NWEurope 37.6%GreekAlbania 5.6%WAsian 2.4%SWAsia

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    I'm North German and 40% of my ancestors came from Mecklenburg (no idea concerning former roots, probably a mix of people from the west and slavic tribes, even Scots settled in Mecklenburg). Maybe the LM results, including Karte 2.png3 Dendro.png4.pngLM Chromosome analysis of my DNA would be interesting as well. North Germans have contributions from neighbours of course. But the neighbours have received DNA-contributions from Germans as well. You don't find a "pure" German and you don't find a "pure" Dane or Norvegian. Germans settled in the Netherlands and Dutch people settled in Germany. By the way, I'm not sure there was a real distinction between North Germans and Dutch people, for they were somehow part of the same population with similar language. The separation took place later.2.png
    Y-DNA: R1b/U152/Z36/CTS4333/CTS7958, from Thuringia 1634, probably Alsace 1552, -- mt-DNA: H
    EUROGENES K13: North German 3.7, North Dutch 4.85, Danish 5.13, Swedish 5.44, Norwegian 5.7 -- West Eurasia K8: WHG 46.64%, ENF 39.09%, ANE 14.23%
    23andMe: speculative 26% French&German, 11.3% Scandinavian, 9.1% Eastern European, 8.8% British&Irish, 1.6% Southern European, 38% Broadly North Euro
    Known ancestry: 92.6% German (66.8% North German), 4.7% Danish, 1.8% Czech, 0.8% Austrian, 0.1% Swiss

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