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Thread: Medieval aDNA in Finland: R1b-L21 Crusader?

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    Medieval aDNA in Finland: R1b-L21 Crusader?

    Has anyone seen any papers or research work behind this ancient skeleton. I can't read it but someone doing analysis on a Finnish Facebook forum has called this skeleton from 1300 AD as Y DNA R1b-P312>Z290>L21>DF13>L513(DF1)>S5668>A7>L193>BY615 and some mtDNA that is very common to Finland.

    This find is in Janakkala of southern Finland. The ancient grave site appeared to be that of an early crusader buried with two swords from different eras.

    "Ancient swordsman's grave could hold many more secrets"
    https://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/a...ecrets/7495913

    "Thousand year old swordsman rises from the earth"
    https://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/t..._earth/6934793

    "Finland's 1,000 year-old swordsman may have met a violent end"
    https://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/f...nt_end/7016200

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Swedish_Crusade

    This is part of a large, youthful subclade that is often associated with Scotland or Ireland, R-S5982(L193). There are a lot of folks with names that have heritages in Scotland and particularly from the English-Scots Borders regions and of the "Reivers" era.
    Last edited by Mikewww; 01-26-2019 at 06:33 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    Has anyone seen any papers or research work behind this ancient skeleton. I can't read it but someone doing analysis on a Finnish Facebook forum has called this skeleton from 1300 AD as Y DNA R1b-P312>Z290>L21>DF13>L513(DF1)>S5668>A7>L193>BY615 and some mtDNA that is very common to Finland.

    This find is in Janakkala of southern Finland. The ancient grave site appeared to be that of an early crusader buried with two swords from different eras.

    "Ancient swordsman's grave could hold many more secrets"
    https://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/a...ecrets/7495913

    "Thousand year old swordsman rises from the earth"
    https://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/t..._earth/6934793

    "Finland's 1,000 year-old swordsman may have met a violent end"
    https://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/f...nt_end/7016200

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Swedish_Crusade

    This is part of a large, youthful subclade that is often associated with Scotland or Ireland, R-S5982(L193). There are a lot of folks with names that have heritages in Scotland and particularly from the English-Scots Borders regions and of the "Reivers" era.
    L513 in a medieval Finnish context just screams British origin, likely Scots serving overseas?

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    Just a small tid-bit related to this, my cousin from my mother's side did some genealogical research on their patrilinearity. Apparently their familial y-line J2a4 derives from Peder Bock, a lawspeaker who lived in Turku/Abo SW Finland around early 14th century. The genealogist believed that the peculiar haplogroup arrived to SW Finland from Smaland Sweden that in turn had received some clergy and nobility from Scotland and British Isles. Even the famous bishop Henrik that at least in myth had christianized Finland was told to hail from "Kaalimaa" (rough translation "Land of Gaels", literal translation "Cabbage Land") which was the term medieval Finns called the British Isles.

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    Maybe he was one of these guys.

     


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    Quote Originally Posted by homunculus View Post
    Just a small tid-bit related to this, my cousin from my mother's side did some genealogical research on their patrilinearity. Apparently their familial y-line J2a4 derives from Peder Bock, a lawspeaker who lived in Turku/Abo SW Finland around early 14th century. The genealogist believed that the peculiar haplogroup arrived to SW Finland from Smaland Sweden that in turn had received some clergy and nobility from Scotland and British Isles. Even the famous bishop Henrik that at least in myth had christianized Finland was told to hail from "Kaalimaa" (rough translation "Land of Gaels", literal translation "Cabbage Land") which was the term medieval Finns called the British Isles.
    And we are back to the kail yard, as the Scots called their kitchen garden.
    Cabbage was THE green leafy vegetable for a very long time.
    And the English had Old King Cole (cabbage).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    Has anyone seen any papers or research work behind this ancient skeleton. I can't read it but someone doing analysis on a Finnish Facebook forum has called this skeleton from 1300 AD as Y DNA R1b-P312>Z290>L21>DF13>L513(DF1)>S5668>A7>L193>BY615 and some mtDNA that is very common to Finland.

    This find is in Janakkala of southern Finland. The ancient grave site appeared to be that of an early crusader buried with two swords from different eras.

    "Ancient swordsman's grave could hold many more secrets"
    https://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/a...ecrets/7495913

    "Thousand year old swordsman rises from the earth"
    https://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/t..._earth/6934793

    "Finland's 1,000 year-old swordsman may have met a violent end"
    https://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/f...nt_end/7016200

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Swedish_Crusade

    This is part of a large, youthful subclade that is often associated with Scotland or Ireland, R-S5982(L193). There are a lot of folks with names that have heritages in Scotland and particularly from the English-Scots Borders regions and of the "Reivers" era.
    Wasn't one of the York "gladiator/soldiers" of Driffield DF13+? I am a bit of an expert on the two U106ers 3drif-16 and 6drif-3, but it's been a while since I looked up anything on the other ones tested in that paper....

    Edit: I went back and took a look at the original York Driffield paper discussion thread and found this about one of the men who is DF63: L21 > DF63 is a brother clade of L21 > DF13. The overwhelming majority of men who have tested positive for L21 to date are L21 > DF13. Relatively few men have tested positive for DF63 so far. Most of the men in the FTDNA DF63 group who have listed a MDKA have listed their ancestor as being from England and Scotland, several Continental, and small numbers from Wales and Ireland.

    Additionally 6drif-18 was DF13+ apparently - this from Alex W. from the original thread: I have taken a look at the R-L11+ guy, 6DRIF-18.

    He is:
    L21+ (1G)

    Z39589+ (1 read with the deletion)

    FGC9659+ (1G)
    FGC17865+ (2T)
    FGC9658+ (1A)

    The above three SNPs are equivalent to or downstream of S1051. They are not well tested in the BigY kits I have.

    FGC9655+ (3T) - downstream of S1051

    FGC19415 looks to be negative (has 3 ancestral reads).

    http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=243

    Alex
    Last edited by Bollox79; 01-28-2019 at 05:21 AM.
    Y-DNA: 4th GGF Adam Weaver born 1785 in Pennsylvania (most likely German) - Sergeant in US 17th Infantry, War of 1812: R1b-U106-Z381-Z156-Z305/306/307-Z304-DF98-S1911-S1894/S1900-S4004/FGC14818/FGC14823-FGC14816/FGC14817 shared with 6drif-3!

    mtDNA: 3rd GGM Bridget Dana b. 1843 Ireland - T2b2b - Ireland, Scandinavia and Hungary - T2b female warrior Grave Bj 581 near Birka, Sweden. Relative of King Bela III of Hungary (his Y-DNA and autosomal kinsman buried near him had mtDNA T2b2b1)!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    The ancient grave site appeared to be that of an early crusader buried with two swords from different eras.
    In terms of autosomal DNA the guy is apparently mostly local, so he can't have been a crusader or something. Maybe a descendant of an early missionary?

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    There's by the way a surname in Finland, Munukka, which looks like a corrupted version of an old English word munuc, "monk".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Huck Finn View Post
    In terms of autosomal DNA the guy is apparently mostly local, so he can't have been a crusader or something. Maybe a descendant of an early missionary?
    I don't know but that's what it appears to be. I read on wikipedia there were three Swedish crusades into Finland during the twelfth and thirteenth centuries.

    This guy would be in our large L193+ "A1 STR cluster". It has a lot of surnames from the Scottish Border Reivers era like Elliott and Little. There are also Sinclairs, Drummond's and others.

    One of the archaeological articles says this was a Christian style burial which would account for why they refer to person as participating in a Crusade (that and of course the long sword).

    Our L513 Swedish expert says the long sword indicates this fellow was not a farmer but a nobleman.

    The only British Isles connection I can find is that one of the key players in the Swedish Crusades into Finland was Henry, a Bishop from England. In wikipedia I find this about Henry.

    "According to the poem, Henry had grown up in "Cabbage Land" (Kaalimaa), which has puzzled Finnish historians for centuries. The name might be connected to a coastal area in northern Finland Proper called Kaland, "

    However, read this.

    "It has also been suggested that the name might be related to Gaelic, which would presumably have referred to the bishop's Scottish origins, though the legend gives him as a native Englishman".

    These are speculative and disputed so we don't know, but if Henry was a supporter of the Swedish initiative he might have had family back home to call for for soldiers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    I don't know but that's what it appears to be. I read on wikipedia there were three Swedish crusades into Finland during the twelfth and thirteenth centuries.

    This guy would be in our large L193+ "A1 STR cluster". It has a lot of surnames from the Scottish Border Reivers era like Elliott and Little. There are also Sinclairs, Drummond's and others.

    One of the archaeological articles says this was a Christian style burial which would account for why they refer to person as participating in a Crusade (that and of course the long sword).

    Our L513 Swedish expert says the long sword indicates this fellow was not a farmer but a nobleman.

    The only British Isles connection I can find is that one of the key players in the Swedish Crusades into Finland was Henry, a Bishop from England. In wikipedia I find this about Henry.

    "According to the poem, Henry had grown up in "Cabbage Land" (Kaalimaa), which has puzzled Finnish historians for centuries. The name might be connected to a coastal area in northern Finland Proper called Kaland, "

    However, read this.

    "It has also been suggested that the name might be related to Gaelic, which would presumably have referred to the bishop's Scottish origins, though the legend gives him as a native Englishman".

    These are speculative and disputed so we don't know, but if Henry was a supporter of the Swedish initiative he might have had family back home to call for for soldiers.
    Scots have a long history of being mercenaries in Scandinavia, Poland, etc. You'll be sure to find L21 of all stripes to some degree.

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