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Thread: Medieval aDNA in Finland: R1b-L21 Crusader?

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    These are speculative and disputed so we don't know, but if Henry was a supporter of the Swedish initiative he might have had family back home to call for for soldiers.
    He might, but as said this swordsman is autosomally Finnish. The otherwise unpublished result was shown in seminar just a couple of days ago. Maybe there's a connection through Scottish-Saxon monasteries, being active on Finnish soil?

    Henrik the bishop was killed in much more western areas of Finland i.e. Finland Proper in the 12th century, this swordsman lived in the more eastern areas i.e. Tavastland, which were still pagan/under the influence of Orthodox mission in those days.
    Last edited by Huck Finn; 02-02-2019 at 08:23 AM.

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  3. #12
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    I can see here pretty much discussion about monks, but this was before the reformation, and all the clergy should have no kids because of celibate. Even if someone broke the rules and had kids, it was quite difficult for a bastard to get to higher ranks.

    Nobles from all over Europe could participate in a crusade, because it was considered very honorable to do so. After almost all the Europe already was christianized, I know that many were eager to participate in wars against Lithuanians, who were almost the last one's to convert. So, even if most of crusaders were Swedish, it could happen that some of them were from Britain. And after success of a crusade, some crusaders would prefer not to return home and to become part of local nobility (for those who were not the first sons of their parents that made sense). In 3-4 generations their descendants where already autosomally local.

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    Quote Originally Posted by artemv View Post
    In 3-4 generations their descendants where already autosomally local.
    Yes, this is possible. Still, a couple of points:

    - the guy was buried with at least two swords, a third one was found nearby. There also was a spear, an axe and some other stuff like tools in the burial. Sounds like a pagan burial to me
    - autosomally the guy is different even from the Swedish samples of Sigtuna i.e. local

    What kind of a crusader (or even a missionary) is that? If the Y-analysis is correct (which still remains to be seen), it really looks like that the man belonged to a local, at least semi-pagan family.
    Last edited by Huck Finn; 02-03-2019 at 12:13 PM.

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  7. #14
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    Some of the previous examination I did on R1b in Sweden demonstrated about 10% of the R1b as under L21. Unless there is an extremely close match <1000 years to many Scots, I don't see a reason for the association. Earlier studies of Sweden from 2005 era thought R1b was the oldest in Sweden, but I suspect that the STR diversity was due to layered migration of various groups of people carrying R1b to the region from the late Bronze Age forward. The layered migration would have been similar to other Haplogroups (I2, G2, J2, E-V13, and even I1), but as R1b is the dominant Haplogroup through all of west-central Europe, the diversity appears more prominently in a sample. In other words, he could have been a local as of 1200-1400 AD, at least in Sweden.
    Last edited by ADW_1981; 02-03-2019 at 10:30 PM.
    YDNA: R1b-Z220 (A7066+) (1800's Stepney, London(Bethnal Green), UK George Wood b. 1782
    maternal-grandfather YDNA: prob. I1 Gurr, George 1843, Feversham, Kent, England.
    maternal-grandmother YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    maternal-ggrandfather YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton mdka Ireland(?) < 1800s

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    Quote Originally Posted by ADW_1981 View Post
    Some of the previous examination I did on R1b in Sweden demonstrated about 10% of the R1b as under L21. Unless there is an extremely close match <1000 years to many Scots, I don't see a reason for the association. Earlier studies of Sweden from 2005 era thought R1b was the oldest in Sweden, but I suspect that the STR diversity was due to layered migration of various groups of people carrying R1b to the region from the late Bronze Age forward. The layered migration would have been similar to other Haplogroups (I2, G2, J2, E-V13, and even I1), but as R1b is the dominant Haplogroup through all of west-central Europe, the diversity appears more prominently in a sample. In other words, he could have been a local as of 1200-1400 AD, at least in Sweden.
    Well, if L21 is a part of Single Grave Culture, it would make sense if at least some of it got to Scandinavia during the Bronze Age. The British Beakers are almost indistinguishable from those of the Netherlands, which, by way of proximity is not far from Denmark, Sweden, etc.
    Maternal grandfather (MDKA: Johannes Nicholas Schaefer, Germany) - yDNA: R1b-U106+, mtDNA: T2
    Maternal grandmother (MDKA: Angelina Centrella, Avellino, Campania, Italia) - mtDNA: HV4a1


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    Quote Originally Posted by ADW_1981 View Post
    Some of the previous examination I did on R1b in Sweden demonstrated about 10% of the R1b as under L21. Unless there is an extremely close match <1000 years to many Scots, I don't see a reason for the association. Earlier studies of Sweden from 2005 era thought R1b was the oldest in Sweden, but I suspect that the STR diversity was due to layered migration of various groups of people carrying R1b to the region from the late Bronze Age forward. The layered migration would have been similar to other Haplogroups (I2, G2, J2, E-V13, and even I1), but as R1b is the dominant Haplogroup through all of west-central Europe, the diversity appears more prominently in a sample. In other words, he could have been a local as of 1200-1400 AD, at least in Sweden.
    What we know now is that the swordsman is Y DNA R1b-312>Z290>L21>DF13>L513(DF1)>S5668>A7>L193>BY615.
    I do not see a singe reason to discuss L21 in general when speaking about this swordsman. Indeed, there are enough L21 branches in Sweden, but L21 is 4500 years old and can be found in most European countries. Let us look more recent SNPs.
    Full way from A7 to BY615 is:
    A7 (3700) > Z17623 > S5979 (3200) > S5982 (1950) > ZS4581 (1700) > Z17817 > BY615
    In brackets I have added Y-full TMRCA estimations in ybp, where available.

    If we check results all the way from A7 we will see that overwhelming majority of branches are from British Isles.
    There is only one person from European continent who was tested ZS4581 (from Germany) out of 65 and not a single Sweden starting from Z17623 (this time out of 339). Totally out of 339 Z17623 persons tested on FTDNA only 3 from European continent - the rest the rest are either from British Isles or former British colonies (US,Canada,Australia).
    Here we have to conclude that swordsman's ancestors by direct male line lived for thousands of years somewhere on the British Isles. And I do not see arguments for indirect migration, like from England to Sweden and then after a number of generations from Sweden to Finland, as we can see no Z17623 Swedish (or continental) branches.
    Last edited by artemv; 02-04-2019 at 12:04 AM.

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  13. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huck Finn View Post
    Yes, this is possible. Still, a couple of points:

    - the guy was buried with at least two swords, a third one was found nearby. There also was a spear, an axe and some other stuff like tools in the burial. Sounds like a pagan burial to me
    - autosomally the guy is different even from the Swedish samples of Sigtuna i.e. local
    Do not know about burial rituals of the 14th century Finland, and if Christians could put all that inventory into a grave.
    But I am thinking about those tools in the grave. Why was it considered, that he was an important figure and likely a nobleman? At a time, it was considered that crafting is not for nobles.

    Ok, if local nobility was mostly Swedish and we do not find at least some Swedish admixture in the swordsman, we have a problem here.

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  15. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by artemv View Post
    Do not know about burial rituals of the 14th century Finland, and if Christians could put all that inventory into a grave.
    But I am thinking about those tools in the grave. Why was it considered, that he was an important figure and likely a nobleman? At a time, it was considered that crafting is not for nobles.

    Ok, if local nobility was mostly Swedish and we do not find at least some Swedish admixture in the swordsman, we have a problem here.
    No, local Christians of 13th century wouldn't probably have put anything but a cross into a grave and of course the swordsman was an important figure, having such a well equipped grave, including tools. In a broader context and in terms of grave material, you apparently have to compare the burial to the Viking Age ones (except that the guy was not any more burned), not to those of later Medieval noblesse. Besides, after the Tavastian Crusade ca. 1250 there probably was a Swedish garrison in Tavastland, but the local chiefs were still mostly local, we know that with certainty as some have fex been mentioned in Papal bullas. Defeated yes, but not at least all beheaded, I'd guess.

    I wonder if the inscription in the most modern sword, "bene-" is of any hint? Some kind of a Benedictine connection?

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  17. #19
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    I think that if the Swordsman's clade is truly from the British Isles he likely decends from a crusader or some other Catholic related mission.

    After several generations the "church" probably intigrated itself with local pagan beliefs which appear in the Swordsman's unique burial and his genome being Finnish.

    Also at this time I don't think Finnish nobility was necessarily Swedish. This didn't happen until later when Finland became more integrated into the Swedish kingdom so there is no need for Swedish admixture.

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  19. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by artemv View Post
    I can see here pretty much discussion about monks, but this was before the reformation, and all the clergy should have no kids because of celibate. Even if someone broke the rules and had kids, it was quite difficult for a bastard to get to higher ranks.

    Nobles from all over Europe could participate in a crusade, because it was considered very honorable to do so. After almost all the Europe already was christianized, I know that many were eager to participate in wars against Lithuanians, who were almost the last one's to convert. So, even if most of crusaders were Swedish, it could happen that some of them were from Britain. And after success of a crusade, some crusaders would prefer not to return home and to become part of local nobility (for those who were not the first sons of their parents that made sense). In 3-4 generations their descendants where already autosomally local.
    Celibacy would not have been very strictly observed in periphery like Finland in the 11-14th centuries, so he might have been a descendant of a monk. On the other hand, his mostly local autosomal results and an mtDNA common in Finland does not disprove mercenary theory. This man died in the 13th/14th century when the SW Finland was already connected to the Central Europe, city of Turku had been established, there was a Dominican Monastery in Turku (est. 1249) and many Hanseatic traders. Most likely in-land was also mostly "Christian" but the crusades were mostly about political influence and rivalry (Sweden, Denmark, German orders and Novgorod, Pope) and about right to tax those Christians. There are contemporary letters of Pope lamenting the things tavastian pagans did to the clergy but they are often seen as a propaganda justifying the crusades.

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