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Thread: Medieval aDNA in Finland: R1b-L21 Crusader?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by artemv View Post
    What we know now is that the swordsman is Y DNA R1b-312>Z290>L21>DF13>L513(DF1)>S5668>A7>L193>BY615.
    I do not see a singe reason to discuss L21 in general when speaking about this swordsman. Indeed, there are enough L21 branches in Sweden, but L21 is 4500 years old and can be found in most European countries. Let us look more recent SNPs.
    Full way from A7 to BY615 is:
    A7 (3700) > Z17623 > S5979 (3200) > S5982 (1950) > ZS4581 (1700) > Z17817 > BY615
    In brackets I have added Y-full TMRCA estimations in ybp, where available.

    If we check results all the way from A7 we will see that overwhelming majority of branches are from British Isles.
    There is only one person from European continent who was tested ZS4581 (from Germany) out of 65 and not a single Sweden starting from Z17623 (this time out of 339). Totally out of 339 Z17623 persons tested on FTDNA only 3 from European continent - the rest the rest are either from British Isles or former British colonies (US,Canada,Australia).
    Here we have to conclude that swordsman's ancestors by direct male line lived for thousands of years somewhere on the British Isles. And I do not see arguments for indirect migration, like from England to Sweden and then after a number of generations from Sweden to Finland, as we can see no Z17623 Swedish (or continental) branches.
    I do not see that this is the only possible conclusion, unless the SNPs in question are so young that they can be said to have born on the British isles around 12-14th century. There might have been continental branches that have died off. Also until now there are no known descendants of Janakkala swordsman in Finland. Of course the British Isles are still the strong candidate but there is no direct evidence of this, only the fact that this is predominantly British today. I saw a table where the Swordsman was grouped together with those samples from Sigtuna that were autosomally identified as "Finnish" but the YDNA is really an open case. Maybe a monk, maybe a descendant of a slave, a mercenary, a trader.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by artemv View Post
    Do not know about burial rituals of the 14th century Finland, and if Christians could put all that inventory into a grave.
    But I am thinking about those tools in the grave. Why was it considered, that he was an important figure and likely a nobleman? At a time, it was considered that crafting is not for nobles.

    Ok, if local nobility was mostly Swedish and we do not find at least some Swedish admixture in the swordsman, we have a problem here.
    In South West Finland burials became almost completely artefact free due to Christianity by the 12th century, only some rings and odd bead necklases have been found. There is one notable exception, where in a previously artefact free burial ground weapon burials started to reappear in the late 12th early 13th century. One man was buried in a full knights gear, lances and all. The archeologists have interpreted these to have been local chieftains who initially have been first to turn to Chritianity and have allied with Sweden but who then have rebelled and turned towards paganism maybe as a reaction to Church's growing influence and attempts to tax the people. Chstianity started in Finland already in the 10th century or even earlier and by the time of Crusades, most people were probably Christian at least to some degree. It was the taxation and the imposition of Catholic power structure that was brought by the crusades. And, as always taxes were not popular. There is a similar rebellion with backlash against Christianity documented in Tavastia which lead to the second Crusade to Finland (if it ever happened).

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  4. #23
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    I did some further research on this and came up with another possible theory. Apparently Danes conducted a crusade to Southern Finland in 1190, and during this they are thought to have built castles in Porvoo (Borgå), Sipoo and possibly in Janakkala (castle of Hakois/Hagen). This castle resembles apparently the castle of Lilleborg on Bornholm. The association of this castle with the Danes has not been discussed in this century but it has not been disapproved in any way. This is probably the castle that was the target of attack by Novgorod in 1311.

    If the castle was established in 1190 but the connection to Denmark was discontinued, maybe the garrison "went native" and in four generations or so a descendant of one of those soldiers, a Scottish mercenary perhaps, was buried as a local, which he was in any other respect expect his Y-DNA.

  5. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huck Finn View Post
    ... What kind of a crusader (or even a missionary) is that? If the Y-analysis is correct (which still remains to be seen), it really looks like that the man belonged to a local, at least semi-pagan family.
    The researcher, Simo Vanhatalo of the National Board of Antiquities, said,

    '“It’s very exciting when two different branches of science come together. In other words, when history and archaeology meet. We just need the patience to wait for the results of the dating tests. Another interesting link is the Christian burial method,”

    I assume he knows what he's talking about.

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