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Thread: The Punjab

  1. #571
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    I guess we read too much into the modern period in the history of Punjab, especially after the rise of Sikhi sure there were figures from all social groups, who contributed to the growth of Sikhi, and the consolidation of power in the hands of figures, cutting across groups, however interpreting that as an indicator of the diminutive nature of specific groups, it implies reading too little into the microcosm of the Punjabi society, especially in the villages, at the time.
    The rise of Sikh Political power through the 18th century was a result of its unifying spirit, and I doubt if anybody had been highlighting the prominence of one social group over another, and the groups were no doubt prevalent, for the diversity in the society of Punjab has been a historical reaiity as such some of the groups were indeed included as a majority, or even comprised a virtual whole, in specific misls.
    Jatts were definitely a dominant part of the rural Punjab, and to this day they are the single largest population group, in the social sense. Speaking of the Rajput(who seem quite numerous) clans we know of today might have adopted this identity as recently as the 17th Century, and they might have been Jatts or from another group.

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  3. #572
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    Quote Originally Posted by desi View Post
    1.) I'm not projecting anything quite frankly, as you fail to understand the use of inconsequential, which can be used comparatively, and which is what you did.

    2.) If you're arguing that Purnima Dhavan has, "lost [her] mind" then I suggest you take that up with her. I think you're failing to understand the nuances of her point. Yes timur durrani demolished the fort, but so did Jassa and the Sikhs when they escaped from Ram Rauni in the initial siege - her point is not about the fort's integrity, which they repaired ultimately, but about the survival of the Sikhs which Jassa accomplished through sallying, a point which Latif agrees on as well, and his rejection of adina beg, which is considered a turning point by her in Sikh history towards gaining complete influence over the Punjab rather than through middlemen and power brokers like the appointees of Mughals or afghans.

    3.) The Kanhaiya and the preceeding Ramgharia Misl were interlinked and began roughly around the same time, but the Kanhaiya ended with the Battle of Batala at the hands of the Sukerchakia and Ramgharia. I'm not sure what you mean it "continued up to Ranjit Singh's time" as Maha Singh ended up absorbing them into the Sukerchakia. That was the end for them as an independent Misl, which by it's very own definition means a sovereign confederacy. The Ramgharia continued up until Jodh Singh willingly ceded the territories to Ranjit Singh under the unification process, when all Misls ended essentially, so again what you're claiming is not holding up.

    4.) You claim the Sukerchakia or Ahluwalia single handedly saved the Sikhs from afghans/invaders and you couldn't be any more wrong. The Ramgharia and many other Misls joined in collectively to rout the Durranis from Punjab and this is evident in the Siege of Lahore, but I'm also not arguing the Ramgharia are the greatest as I agree that the Sukerchakia and Ahluwalia were powerhouses.

    5.) Many Sikh scholars/historians, all non-Ramgharia I should add, agree that the Ramgharia Misl and Jassa have not gotten their rightful place and are in fact neglected in Sikh history. I mean the most clear-cut example of this is the colloquial mentions of the Battle of Delhi (1783) only referencing Baghel Singh rather than Jassa Singh Ramgharia or Ahluwalia. Here's more: https://www.tribuneindia.com/2006/20060330/aplus.htm#1
    First the whole "inconsequential" thing, and now you're claiming that I said that the Sukerchakia or Ahluwalia "single handedly saved the sikhs". This is the most unfair argument I've ever indulged.

    First of all the brackets clearly came after the Ahluwalia and before the comma separating the Sukerchakia. Secondly, I never said that Ahulwalia's "single handedly" saved the sikhs. I said they saved the sikhs from the afghans. Single handedly means they did it all by themselves. But what I'm referring to is when Jassa Singh Ahulwalia led all the sikhs against the Abidalis, which I mentioned in my earlier posts.

    Coming to the Kanhaiya and Ramgharia. Please re-read my earlier post quoting the gurdaspur gazetteer. if you read it properly you would have seen that Ranjit Singh "seized" ramgharia territory 2 years after Jassa Ramgharia's death. And Batala was retaken and remained as a Kanhaiya possession up to Ranjit Singh. Who annexed it in 1811. See Gurdaspur Gazetteer (1891). Page 29. And well before that the Kanhaiya joined hands with the Sukerchakia in marriage and operated essentially as one. But this isn't really what I was getting at anyway. As I predicted you're fixating on certain points.

    My understanding of the Ramgharia misl, from my own reading and from other sikhs was that it was neither very important nor very un-important. Especially compared to the misls which you described as powerhouses. Now if you think that the Ramgharia are viewed by most people and historians as un-important or less than my understanding. Then thats not an argument I wanna get in.

    I think we're done here, and quoting user Jatt1
    Quote Originally Posted by Jatt1 View Post
    To be very true I absolutely have no time to indulge in such unnecessary endless arguments that never get anywhere.
    Last edited by Kulin; 03-03-2021 at 10:00 PM. Reason: removal of inflammatory content

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  5. #573
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    Guys, you can discuss these things, but avoid throwing disparaging terms or blaming the messenger.

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  7. #574
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kulin View Post
    Guys, you can discuss these things, but avoid throwing disparaging terms or blaming the messenger.
    sorry my bad

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  9. #575
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  11. #576
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    Quote Originally Posted by laltota View Post
    I wasn’t agitated, I could have replied to him (user @desi) with something counter to what he posted. Then he would again reply back to me with something else and so on. It would only waste my time and his time, so I was just saying to him I will let it rest.

    Converting to Sikhism does not remove inequality automatically. Otherwise Dalit Sikhs would have been able to do the same after converting. There were some Brahmins who became Sikhs. They were not Avarna or Shudra. Avarna/shudra thing is not the reason Jatts became Sikhs (imo).

    I've read quite a bit before about Maharjah Ranjit Singh. I dont remember reading that he gave lands to ordinary Jatts, but if you have come across anything then you can share. He followed the previous Jagirdar system. As far as I recall he gave big jagirs of land to his generals etc, when he took away lands from previous Jagirdars and others who were opponents, but not lands to common Jatts.

    With regard to British, I have not seen anything to say they alloted land to ordinary Jatts in any big way (or at all) except in the canal colonies. In established places that were already cultivated, to give land to Jatts they would have had to take the lands from someone else to give to Jatts, but from who would they have taken the land?

    I am not saying there are no landless Jatts, or Jatts had their land for thousands of years, but I have not seen anything saying Ranjit Singh or British gave lots of land to Jatts except in canal colonies. If you guys have proof, except in canal colonies...

    We can see the Bedi guy got a huge chunk of land. Reason was British thought he was influential with Sikhs due to his claim to be descended from Guru Nanak. On the other hand most ordinary Jatt cultivators got smaller chunks of land, but because there were a large number of them, they had a lot more in total.
    Also modern sikh jatt dominated east punjab is very different from pre 1947. Which had huge population of muslim rajputs who were historically land owners. And then small land owners like arains. Also population of muslim gujjars and jatts. Basically these communities were replaced by mostly sikh jatts from west punjab otherwise landownership would reflect diverse biradaris in east punjab like it does in west punjab.

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  13. #577
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    Quote Originally Posted by bol_nat View Post
    Also modern sikh jatt dominated east punjab is very different from pre 1947. Which had huge population of muslim rajputs who were historically land owners. And then small land owners like arains. Also population of muslim gujjars and jatts. Basically these communities were replaced by mostly sikh jatts from west punjab otherwise landownership would reflect diverse biradaris in east punjab like it does in west punjab.
    There may be few such landowning rajput etc. muslim famillies, but not many rajput families in the east Punjab to my knowledge at least not in my area. I have heard of only about one such family with none other in 50 odd villages, I doubt if it was a rajput family, most other muslim families were teli, marasi etc.. Also remember all non muslim landowning different castes that moved from west got the land allotted to them in the east Punjab, so the proportions didn't really change, and those lands probably were owned by muslim Jatts/arains etc., not by rajputs.

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  15. #578
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jatt1 View Post
    There may be few such landowning rajput etc. muslim famillies, but not many rajput families in the east Punjab to my knowledge at least not in my area. I have heard of only about one such family with none other in 50 odd villages, I doubt if it was a rajput family, most other muslim families were teli, marasi etc.. Also remember all non muslim landowning different castes that moved from west got the land allotted to them in the east Punjab, so the proportions didn't really change, and those lands probably were owned by muslim Jatts/arains etc., not by rajputs.
    Sarkaar of Sirhind in Delhi subah dominated by rāngarh (muslim Rajput). It was called "bavni" (52 lakh revenue per year) in Mughal time and strongest fort of Mughal between Delhi and Lahore

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  17. #579
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koonger View Post
    Sarkaar of Sirhind in Delhi subah dominated by rāngarh (muslim Rajput). It was called "bavni" (52 lakh revenue per year) in Mughal time and strongest fort of Mughal between Delhi and Lahore
    Was that present in 1947, even if it was it is far away from my place in Hoshiarpur. If I remember it right I think Banda Bahadur put and end to his rein of terror somewhere around 1710.

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  19. #580
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jatt1 View Post
    Was that present in 1947, even if it was it is far away from my place in Hoshiarpur. If I remember it right I think Banda Bahadur put and end to his rein of terror somewhere around 1710.
    I was talking about pre-aurangzeb period.

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