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Thread: The Punjab

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by MonkeyDLuffy View Post
    The fact that NW, especially Punjab is the only region in subcontinent where Brahmin results don't stand out in comparison to local population, is self explanatory about how it differs from the subcontinent. I'm positive same analogy can be applied to Sindh. Even British noted this, that how complex society structure is in the region.

    Since I've provided sources, and will post some more later, I'd love to answer more questions because from posts over the time by various users it seems there's a lot of misconceptions. If mods want to make a separate thread for it, that'd be nicer. So the thread can move on to rest of subcontinent.
    thats a good idea because this thread keeps going back to Punjab

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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by poi View Post
    We need various cultural AMA(within the terms) threads! NW would definitely be on top of my list.
    Yes! One culture per day.

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  5. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by MonkeyDLuffy View Post
    The fact that NW, especially Punjab is the only region in subcontinent where Brahmin results don't stand out in comparison to local population, is self explanatory about how it differs from the subcontinent. I'm positive same analogy can be applied to Sindh. Even British noted this, that how complex society structure is in the region.

    Since I've provided sources, and will post some more later, I'd love to answer more questions because from posts over the time by various users it seems there's a lot of misconceptions. If mods want to make a separate thread for it, that'd be nicer. So the thread can move on to rest of subcontinent.
    i kind of agree to this i have seen this Also i didnt even know brahmins existed I only knew this word from a gujerati, and then i started researching including Kashmiri Pandit.... hardly ever come across a brahmin from within Pakistan apart from Rahul77 he is the first i am hearing lol and the mohyal family i read on news (think they were brahmins - shows what world i was living in lol (because i dont really pay attention to caste) - I forced my father to tell us because everyone else knew what they were (dad doesn't agree either)

    but I am agreeing with your views from my experiences NGL
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  7. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amber29 View Post
    i kind of agree to this i have seen this Also i didnt even know brahmins existed I only knew this word from a gujerati, and then i started researching including Kashmiri Pandit.... hardly ever come across a brahmin from within Pakistan apart from Rahul77 he is the first i am hearing lol and the mohyal family i read on news (think they were brahmins - shows what world i was living in lol (because i dont really pay attention to caste) - I forced my father to tell us because everyone else knew what they were (dad doesn't agree either)

    but I am agreeing with your views from my experiences NGL
    It's understandable since they're very small part of population and weren't dominating community in the region. Although you'd be surprised to know a lot of Kashmiris are Brahmin/pandit converts. A militant from kashmir had pandit as his surname! Which was a paradox in itself lol. Bhatt became Butt etc etc.
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    Punjabi folk religion pre dating Sikhism is an interesting concept. I had always assumed that the Sikh community would have been formed from both Hindu and Muslim converts.

    How much of the residual Punjabi folk religion is related to other subcontinental 'folk' cultures? I say that as veneration of shrines, melas and the concept of spirits seems pretty wide spread.

    And I notice on that wiki page MDL that there's a big overlap with Muslim saints. Reminds me alot of Bengal and (Muslim) shrine veneration. There are Mazars all over the place which are attributed to various saints / awliya. In Sylhet, there are almost 300 some of which are in family homesteads and had their own urs / mela associated with it. We have one in my grandfather's homestead. The core concepts are very folk and rural based. And must predate Islam in the region, to some degree.

    Similar to Bengal, Punjab must have had a Hindu resurgence post Buddhism but after a protracted period where perhaps the caste system based lines became more blurred.

    Just a thought, but wouldn't explain the genetic differences between biraderi based tribes and chamars, unless one or the other were the more recent migrants in.

    Do we have any material evidence of what the caste based system was like in Punjab at the time of the Muslim conquests or subsequent years pre Sikhism?
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  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by MonkeyDLuffy View Post
    It's understandable since they're very small part of population and weren't dominating community in the region. Although you'd be surprised to know a lot of Kashmiris are Brahmin/pandit converts. A militant from kashmir had pandit as his surname! Which was a paradox in itself lol. Bhatt became Butt etc etc.
    Yes when I think of brahmin I know when they refer to Priest Pandit pops up on my head..... Do you think these have relations to the Syed population maybe for the muslim converts - maybe that why arent so popular or is that a completely different topic? - as I have heard Syed converts were of brahmin origin - not trying to trigger anything here I actually being serious here like genuine question...maybe who knows this was the case why I dont hear much about the brahmins of the NW region?

    Ive learnt so much coming to anthrogenica all you guys are awesome!
    Last edited by Amber29; 01-28-2019 at 06:43 PM. Reason: wrong word lol
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  13. #27
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    @Amber

    A decent chunk of Syeds in Pakistan are supposed to be of Brahmin origins. The Sudhans of AJK have also been associated with Brahmin origins. Though, some of them claim Pashtun ancestry.
    pegasus modeling:

    sample": "Punjabi_Jat:Sapporo_AGUser",
    "fit": 1.1506,
    "IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3": 43.33,
    "TKM_Gonur1_BA": 31.67,
    "RUS_Sintashta_MLBA": 25,
    "closestDistances": [

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    Quote Originally Posted by laltota View Post
    Your father will have an OCI card (OCI booklet, popularly known as OCI card) which would allow him to travel to India without needing to get a visa every time. India does not allow dual citizenship, so your father will not have any kind of Indian passport after he obtained another citizenship. Some people keep the Indian passport by not returning it after acquiring another citizenship, but this is illegal per India, and they will take the passport if they find out later when it is being renewed or at an airport etc and it could make person liable to imprisonment and fines.

    India treats former Indian citizens, or those with Indian ancestry very poorly compared to most other countries, and much worst than similar Pakistanis and Bangladeshis are treated by those countries. Pakistanis and Bangladeshis can also keep dual or multiple citizenship like UK, Canada and many others.

    NRI means non-resident Indian. These are Indians working overseas temporarily and those permanently settled abroad but who keep their Indian citizenship.
    Some others are considered "NRI" for other purposes e.g. they can acquire an OCI card, and also open NRI bank accounts in India, inherit and keep ancestral farm land etc
    I spoke to my father. He chose to acquire a visa rather than an OCI card. Supposedly, the OCI is frowned upon by some diaspora Sikhs since it allows India to treat you as a citizen for legal issues. According to my father, the US, Canada or UK wouldn’t be able to do anything if India were to detain you while holding an OCI card.
    pegasus modeling:

    sample": "Punjabi_Jat:Sapporo_AGUser",
    "fit": 1.1506,
    "IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3": 43.33,
    "TKM_Gonur1_BA": 31.67,
    "RUS_Sintashta_MLBA": 25,
    "closestDistances": [

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  17. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reza View Post
    Punjabi folk religion pre dating Sikhism is an interesting concept. I had always assumed that the Sikh community would have been formed from both Hindu and Muslim converts.

    How much of the residual Punjabi folk religion is related to other subcontinental 'folk' cultures? I say that as veneration of shrines, melas and the concept of spirits seems pretty wide spread.

    And I notice on that wiki page MDL that there's a big overlap with Muslim saints. Reminds me alot of Bengal and (Muslim) shrine veneration. There are Mazars all over the place which are attributed to various saints / awliya. In Sylhet, there are almost 300 some of which are in family homesteads and had their own urs / mela associated with it. We have one in my grandfather's homestead. The core concepts are very folk and rural based. And must predate Islam in the region, to some degree.

    Similar to Bengal, Punjab must have had a Hindu resurgence post Buddhism but after a protracted period where perhaps the caste system based lines became more blurred.

    Just a thought, but wouldn't explain the genetic differences between biraderi based tribes and chamars, unless one or the other were the more recent migrants in.

    Do we have any material evidence of what the caste based system was like in Punjab at the time of the Muslim conquests or subsequent years pre Sikhism?
    Islam arrived earlier than Sikhism, here is what's the date according to Wiki:

    Islam first arrived in the Punjab following the conquest of Sindh by Muhammad bin Qasim in 712.
    So that's almost 1300 years. Long enough to have impact on language, culture and traditions. Sufism had the biggest influence on the region as well as on Sikhism. Hence pirs are worshipped even by Hindus and Sikhs of the region. We did talk about Jathera before which is a kind of ancestral worship again unique to the region and surrounding areas. The melas are often dedicated to Shaheeds and saints as you said. But Islam is older in Punjab than bengal, not to mention west of Punjab was Muslim only population, which allowed more strong influence on region.

    My understanding of Caste system before Sikhism is based on works of Sikh scholars and stories from Sikh history. You can read about life if Gurus, especially guru nanak devji which explains what was the society like. You can also read this book to get understanding of society pre and post sikhism, you'll need to create an account tho:

    https://www.jstor.org/stable/2629072...n_tab_contents
    Deg Teg Fateh - Victory to Charity and Arms

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  19. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapporo View Post
    @Amber

    A decent chunk of Syeds in Pakistan are supposed to be of Brahmin origins. The Sudhans of AJK have also been associated with Brahmin origins. Though, some of them claim Pashtun ancestry.
    Bored mentioned they're Brahmin converts, because there are still Hindu Sudhans in Jammu who are brahmins lol.
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